Unarmed and Dangerous

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Tosh, Sep 17, 2003.

  1. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    Did anybody see this on UK TV last night??

    I have it taped if anybody wants a loan and your passing the Fife area :D

    What did you think of the issues surrounding disabled martial artist's and thier abilities in the ring/self defence??

    I'm particularly interested in any instructor response who have had experience teaching people with major disabilities.

    For example, the case last night was Matt Fraser has short arms ( caused by his mother being prescribed thalidomide during preganancy). He had real trouble defending any shots to the head but due to this he was really good at slipping.

    Anyone got any thoughts on the show (if you saw it) or how you would train this student for general self-defence situations?

    Quite interesting since the ability to grapple has been removed to a large extent. Do the grapple guys have any suggestions about abled bodies verus someone with limited use, or no arms??

    Your thoughts?
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2003
  2. johndoch

    johndoch upurs

    Seen this last night.

    Respect to the guy for getting out there and doing it. Even though the fight seemed pretty tame and the other guy held back I still feel that the disabled guy achieved what he set out to do.

    I dont feel that disabled fighters hinder a club but add to it. Its up to instructors and students alike to change their attitudes and learn to acomodate them.

    IMO the MA's are not solely the domain of young fit fighters but also anyone who feels the need to find their own path in the arts.
  3. Bouk Teef

    Bouk Teef Valued Member

    I agree with you John. The real challenge is adapting the MA techniques to suit whatever physical 'limitation' somebody has. I thought the guy showed alot of heart and had a good sense of humour throughout.
    As a general question, are there any combative ( ie, boxing judo etc...) sports in the paralympics? Taking that further, would the public want to see two disabled people trying to not lumps out of each other in a 'cage' type location when alot cannot stomach two abled guys going at each other?
  4. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk


    This raises a lot of issues about perceptions and how we see people. I mean we shouldn't be judging disabled people on how they look. Is is the fact that they do not want to see them fight down to the level of competition?? Or is it because people generally find it difficult to cope when presented with an image of "non-normality"??

    Difficult questions to be asked. On one hand you could certainly say that it would be interesting to see how people with disabilities adapt, but at what point does this stop being a regular fight and start turning into a circus attraction for a baying crowd??

    In my opinion there has to be a lot of attitudes changed before anything close to this could be accepted on a regular basis.
  5. AsSaSiN

    AsSaSiN New Member

    Very impressive artist. It semmed that his inability to use his hands had translated excellently into his other skills, such as slippling attacks, and kicking. It seemed as though his kicks almost made up for his punches to a certain level. Although i still see all fighters as equal, regardless of disability/ability, the heart he must have had to know he has a disadvantage, yet still fighting is immense, regardless of the fact the opponent held back.
  6. Jim

    Jim New Member

    Kinda like training with women... ;)
  7. Bon

    Bon Banned Banned

    Having one leg would be beneficial for some moves in the guard, but would make other things a lot harder.
  8. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk


    <Jim rides of into the sunset on controversy-cycle>

    <Tosh waves him Goodbye and salutes>

    You must love the smell of Napalm Jim! :D
  9. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    obviously he does... :rolleyes:

    Do you honestly view women as "disabled" and as such need to "accomodate" them in class....

    I don't see the correlation and think that is a poor analogy Jim.

    But please let us not argue that .... very good thread Tosh one that we have not covered as much here on MAP ... the disabled martial artist.
    Would have been interesting to see that show Tosh ...
    .... and so true, this does raise a lot of issues about perceptions and how we see people. ;)
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2003
  10. Joe karate

    Joe karate New Member

    They can do fine, it was mentioned that a disabled guy may have a diadvantge in grappling. NO!!!

    I once wrestled with a guy who had no legs. We only drilled together but he was good. But i figured "he could do the drills but no way he can wrestle!"

    Lo and behold he was ranked in the top ten for his weight class in high school for the county. May have even been in the state tournament.
  11. stump

    stump Supersub

    This guy has extremely short arms....in this case grappling for him was pretty much out of the question...

    These cases have to be taken on their individual merits...with a focus on what the person can do, not what they can't.

    I was at the show where the guys fight took place. Fair play to Mat for getting in there and doing a bloody good job.

    My main memory of that fight was the MC - Ian the machine Freeman calling for a big round of applause for "the very able" Mat fraser.

    He got it...
  12. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    He can use his legs, have you got any advice about what he could do with those? I mean in a grappling capacity.

    Are there not various types of locks and stuff where he could use his legs only??
  13. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Used to train with a disabled guy

    who passed away and was given his honoury black belt, great guy and he only could not walk he could stand and all and was fairly good on the ground but he could not fight in a ring and I would have hated to watch it.

    Fair play to anyone who did but I think it needs to always be a fair fight between able or disabled people. Not any other way in my view.

    There are some things that are not possible due to a disability that someone may have and I think realisim should be placed on all involved.
  14. stump

    stump Supersub

    Tosh I'm speaking about Mat in particular...according to the Documentary (I dont know the guy) he trained at Elite - a MMA group in London and probably could grapple to some extent, but there's no way he could fight MMA competitavely......he admitted so himself happily. I'm sure he could and did train grappling

    As I said earlier you have to take these cases on an individual basis.....I'm sure many disabled Martial artists can and do effectively grapple...I never said to the contrary. But in a ring against an able bodied opponent....no.

    There are a few legs only grappling moves in theory such as the triangle but I doubt you'd catch anyone in it without using your arms to adjust etc.....I could be wrong of course...I'm no expert grappler
  15. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    Of course not, I'm not having a dig, I'm just interested in the thoughts this type of problem throws up.

    I mean as a general rule us human being have shown a remarkable capacity to adjust to our situation and surroundings. I just wondered if anybody knew of or had suggestionsfor some possible solutions.

    Adapt and survive and alll that! :D
  16. stump

    stump Supersub

    Sorry if I was overly defensive Tosh.

    There is some grappling stuff than can be done with legs only....but it's more the Tricks type of thing rather than the meat and potatoes as far as i know.
  17. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    because he had the arms and torso of someone 50 lbs heavier!

    There's a TV show here in the US called "Banzai", they have stupid segments where the home audience "bets"on the outcome. They had a one-armed goalie defend against a one-legged kicker trying to score a penalty shot. That's great TV! The kicker won, but it was close, on the deciding kick the ball went right through the spot where the goalie's other hand would have been!

    But anyway, it's 2 different questions : mentally handicapped or physically handicapped in MA. I think everyone should study MA to whatever level they can, no matter their mental or physical ability. So somebody with no legs isn't ever gonna be that good at TKD, and somebody with the emotional and mental capacity of a 4yr old is never going to be successful at NHB fighting. (altho I might have to reconsider that given soe of the posts I see from NHB types - not here of course but on other boards!LOL)

    I pay to see fights because I want to see the competitors exhibit the peak of skills... so special olympics NHB fighting wouldn't really interest me. But, if they want to do it, go for it!

  18. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    I really think grappling relies more on legs than arms, he had no way to control his opponent while on the ground, I did watch the program! ;) Then again, fighting a good grappler is hard enough with arms, so he would really have little chance realistically.......

    But he did well and should proud of himself holding the other guy back with some fancy kicking!
  19. Joe karate

    Joe karate New Member

    " because he had the arms and torso of someone 50 lbs heavier!"

    Hey, just pointing it out that he participated and was able to turn his disability into an advantage.
  20. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    One thing he could have done is learn to headbutt..............

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