Ukraine say's Russia has invaded

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Rhythmkiller, Feb 28, 2014.

  1. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i think this is just an odd that you'd take that position. the crimea is actually a part of the ukraine. right? or am i not correct about that. doesn't matter about when the land traded hands, doesn't matter what ethnic group makes up that parcel of land. technically, the crimea is ukraine national territory as of 2014.

    i think you're better off saying that russia is annexing another country's territory and get on with it.
     
  2. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    it's not like we're going to do anything about it militarily. really, only russia, the usa and china have the capability to decimate every soul on this planet. i just think you might as well be honest about what's happening.

    an interesting side effect though. looks like europe is going all-in for green energy. probably not what russian oligarchs want to hear--that or the financial sanctions.
     
  3. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Personally I'm fine saying Russia's annexed Crimea. What irks me is the West, and America especially, suddenly now acting like it cares about national sovereignty because Russia did something bad. This seriously has reminded me a lot of what I studied during the Cuban Missile Crisis, even down to the language used. America does a bunch of stuff for ages and Russia takes it, then Russia does the same thing and suddenly World War 3 becomes a possibility to a lot of people.
     
  4. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    Don't worry, we're just big on posturing, we've never started a world war. And when one does arise, we just come in at the end to support the winning side so we can act like we did something. We also use it as an opportunity to cross moral boundaries, for example dropping a nuke.
     
  5. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Haha I know war's not an actual possibility, I mean that's the reaction I see from the general population. I was playing a game the evening after Russia invaded and there were like 40 American players all talking about how it meant war and whether they'd enlist or not. Granted, they're gamers, but I saw it across social networks too. Ya'll still don't seem to be over the cold war thing.

    I'm also not trying to dog on America for those sovereignty incursions either by the way. The hypocrisy is what annoyed me, not necessarily the actions themselves.
     
  6. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    Something to consider is the Chinese have been sitting on the sidelines on this one so far. Russia taking a disputed Crimea is one thing, Russia invading the Ukraine proper would be another. Russia has a long disputed border with China and I believe China would get very nervous if they did that.
     
  7. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    I think that this is one side of it, but I think Russia's position is equally valid in this instance i.e. self determination, referendum etc. The reason for me taking this position is that to me both sides of this dispute have contrived the circumstances to their favour, but I think the primary instigator is the US/EU as they have pushed Russia on to its current path when they could have de-escalated this some time ago. Also, I think that the way Russia has been treated by the West since the collapse of the USSR has been a major contribution to the way Russia has began to assert itself.

    I can give you more details on why I see it this way but this will have to wait till Monday when I'm back at my PC.

    Yeah, it will be interesting to see how this unravels.

    There are already some developments in terms of fracking and potential for expansion of this and other unorthodox methods of energy extraction as well as loosening of export restrictions on US energy products.

    Overall though, I think the current course of action has more chance of negatively affecting US, Europe and worst of all Ukraine than Russia, and frankly I think the action of politicians on the Western side is going to affect our lives for the worse and I don't understand their reasoning here, unless it's just ego.

    Here are a couple finance / commodity blogs I read pointing out some potential fallout:

    http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/buffoon-bluffery-what-are-sanctions.html

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-...n-prepares-announce-holy-grail-gas-deal-china

    There is also this, the hypocracy and propaganda is just ridiculous.

    I work as an analyst so I read news all day from multiple sources and the amount of deliberate misinformation and censorship in publications I previously thought were relatively independent is quite shocking to me.

    What really gets me is that the majority of the comments in the comments sections of most major publications are full of people decrying the US/EU approach and the publications own subjective twist on the events. Yet, most of these, i.e. the whole commenting sections, are removed completely and quickly, as they don't tow the line.

    It's all really quite sad and ordinary Ukrainians are stuck in the middle of this stupid game, tens of million of people will likely suffer as a result, all because of some egotistical posturing.
     
  8. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    When it comes down to the blame game, nobody is innocent. China and Russia probably have the cleanest hands to be honest. Japan, Europe, and the United States . . . . we're some nasty people.

    The only way I think any sort of conflict will happen will be if Russia tries to take more of the Ukraine. It will probably be more of united allied approach in that circumstance. If we follow history, the U.S. will say "that's your problem guys!" until we get brought into it somehow or there is a clear winner and help deal the final blow. :p

    Those gamers are a bunch of dopes. Good lord, from the gaming throne to warfare . . . . . sure thing buddy. And Russia on top of that? Hopes of grandeur and honor through war (whatever that is) will quickly be killed when reports start coming in of hundreds of thousands dying due to extreme climate condition if the war ended up on Russian soil. Most of our weapons wouldn't even work in a Russian winter without a special kind of lubrication. You can't get regular lubrication for your weapons most of the time, good luck getting special lubrication! lol

    So stupid.
     
  9. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Indeed, USSR has had a war with China over borders before:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_border_conflict

    Also they are probably quite ruffled by the whole self determination business. They have a lot of minorities which want independence. On the other hand the protection of its citizens in foreign lands is probably an idea China could get on with.
     
  10. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Europeans? Please. We British are lovely people. Never hurt anyone and we've certainly never annexed some other poor chaps bit of land. No one with a flag anyway.

    Sidelines seems more likely. I vaguely remember reading that NATO refused Ukraine for that exact reason.

    But these dudes were playing Red Orchestra. They're far more trained than your average COD dudebro. But yeah man it was so silly. Good few of the "YEAH lets kill some Commies!!" type guys on there. Ah gamers. Don't ever change.
     
  11. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    China is an interesting place. Forced into change/development due to imperialism and colonization and they dealt with tons of internal conflict for years just to develop a sense of sovereignty and national identity. It makes me spit when we talk about "getting ready for possible war with China" where the military's mission preparedness is talked about now that we're winding down from out own manufactured war.

    The whole world was forced into dealing with things by the way the West established them. We probably have the least say about how thing should be or where they should go in the ongoing process of globalization honestly. We always pick out all kinds of atrocities that happen in these countries we speak up about, but the West is no better and a lot of the situations that happen are a result of Western policies. :confused:
     
  12. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    Is this a serious statement? You have a lack of smileys here.
     
  13. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    But it does have an Eddie Izzard quote :p

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k"]Eddie Izzard - Do you have a flag? - YouTube[/ame]
     
  14. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    Putin wants to bring back the old Soviet Union. The idea of a west leaning Ukraine is abhorrent to him. Unfortunately there is nothing we can do to prevent him from taking over whatever country he wants to in his sphere of influence.
     
  15. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    But Russia is not as economically independent as the USSR was. A full blown sanctions war would hurt the entire world but it would devastate Russia.

    Keep in mind as well that Russia does not have the manufacturing capabilities that the USSR had either especially in heavy industry. It doesn't have the same command and control in place either. Russia is a military power but not anywhere near the magnitude of the USSR except for it's nukes.
     
  16. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i wouldn't say russia's course of action has any validity. i'm not saying this to be all pro-usa/eu. i mean come on, the guy invades another country. and he can do that because he's got tons of natural gas and nukes. it's a pretty naked play for power. the "referendum" was obviously a total sham.

    and i don't think you're right that anything in this saga is going to negatively affect the usa. maybe the eu because they're the direct recipients of the gas. i think all this just makes the usa look better than russia. that's just my lowly opinion.
     
  17. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Well you know these are all just opinions. Let's see what happens. I'm sure we can agree on how ridiculous the situation is.
     
  18. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    That's the worst part for me, waiting around to see what happens.

    Wait around until a bunch of people who are in leadership positions that you neither trust or believe have the correct morality/interests in mind to make a good decision. Can't wait for the outcome, or for it to come bit the next generation in the ass.
     
  19. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Yeah, it's depressing, but it's always like that I think, it's just a matter of how apparent it is.
     
  20. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    So, Putin pre-revolution saying it's us or them.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/19/us-russia-ukraine-putin-idUSBRE98I0WB20130919
    (first I could find, with the explosion of Ukraine-Putin news stories hard to search for)
    Differentiation between Russia and the USSR is always tricky. The USSR was by no means a partnership of equals and the decision making processes were all massively centralised to Moscow and largely operated by Russians. Stalin was technically Georgian by modern definitions but he was born Russian and the area he was born self identifies as Russian. Brezhnev was born in the Eastern Ukraine to Russian parents. Every other premier was Russian. To a large extent the Soviet governmental apparatus was Russian.

    America has sold in bulk to a few big buyers, and on occasion supplied arms to militant groups fighting Soviets or Soviet supplied groups, but come on, wherever it's kicking off everyone is rocking AKs, BMPs and MiGs.

    You won't find me defending America's foreign policy in the 20th century, they were idiots and the seeds of many problems we face now were sown then.
     

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