UK Police - procedures for search of a female

I don't have a problem with being detained or questioned but once it crosses the line into harassment it needs to be reported. There is not an acceptable level of abuse for citizens. Playing good cop, bad cop, with a known perpetrator is fine when you have some signs that they are involved. Just grabbing someone because they happen to be in the area and grilling them is not acceptable.

So we should live in fear of the police and the criminals?
If citizens fear police they don't come forward and don't report crimes. The only winners are criminals.

see above

Criminals try to play the system, violating the rights of law abiding-citizens will not stop that. If you want to see the results of getting tough with criminals you should hangout here for a while. Violent treatment of criminals produces more desparate and more violent criminals.

No it sets up a deterrent to going to the police.

Hasn't worked here, yet.

 

You single handedly just shattered my dream of being a cop..

To be honest though, maybe I’m just demented but I don’t see much wrong with grabbing someone because they happen to be in the area and grilling them, and potentially harassing them for a bit, you never know maybe they’ll own up to something they did not do.. na, that’s a joke, could happen though… but such scenarios may also provide more information about criminal activity than a softly softly approach. To be honest, I’m not too sure about my argument on this point, but I do feel being completely soft and civil in these matters is the wrong way to go.

Well, I think it works both ways, if people fear the police then they would also think that, had they been criminally violated, that they would want these abusive/harsh police folk on the criminals case, i.e. ensuring that they don’t have a good time. I don’t really see why fear of the police would result in people not reporting crime, I think it may actually increase it. I think peoples perceptions of a weak/meek police force would do more to stop them reporting crime or coming for help, as in their minds it would be useful. I.e. if your in trouble with some “bad asses” you don’t go and ask a wimp to help you out, you ask the bigger “bad ass”.

This may well be true, I have not had the experience you mention.

I guess, it could be so, but I think it would really be down to how the police manage their relations with victims, plus the stuff I mentioned in response to your second point may be of relevance.

As I think I have previously mentioned, Singapore has harsh laws and harsh police, and their crime rate is very low. I think if I were to create a police force I would base it ton their approach, of course further investigation is required. As with regards to your point, I think much more information would be needed to make any coherent comparative analysis from which some conclusion could be drawn, or not.

 

inthespirit

I'm kind of intrigued here, so for the sake or argument lets make this a bit more personal, with a hypothetical situation. I'm interested to see what you think.

Say it was your Ma*.
Say the police have been informed that a grey haired lady has been shoplifting in Marks and Spencer (they'd have to arrest everybody, lol!) and has just left the store. Your Ma is a grey haired lady (again more assumptions, I'm really thinking about my Ma!) who has just left the store. She's not a shoplifter, she's been picking up some groceries, but she fits the profile. The polis pick her up. OK, from here it pretty much runs the way JB has described. She goes down to the polis station and is strip searched. Down to her big ol' M&S pants. Maybe this time there are some younger policemen going past the room who are looking in and laughing, making rude comments about her, before the WPC shoo's them away.

How do you feel about that? She's a suspect, they shouldnt have to give her any kind of dignity or respect, right?

Cause to be honest, if that was my Ma (and she's a tough old boot), I wouldnt be very happy.

What say you?

*Assumptions galore here, I know, but work with me, substitute a beloved auntie or granny or whatever if you need to

 

You are definitely a "suit "!!! LOL!!!

 

OI Plod!

I am an EX-suit now I have moved across the big blue wobbly thing that mermaids live in!

Anyway I prefer the pneumonic of Copper In Disguise thank you! ;-)

 

Welcome to the western hemisphere. So you traded in your nightstick for a team of dogs and a sled. How are things in the arctic tundra these days?

 

At the moment thick with snow and about -5!

I love snow me!

 

Well… personally, I would be a bit concerned as any child is for their parent and vice versa, in just about any situation. But the situation you described is the sort of reality I have lived with for quite awhile. Consequently, my mother has also lived in this sort of reality, if not worst, for some time longer than me, so there is a certain level of acceptance and conditioning.. Furthermore, my mother and I have been in far worse scenarios than the one you mentioned, so I think such a case would be a walk in the park.

I see what your getting at though, and yeah I agree that it would be distressing for many people, but its just a matter of time before they get used to it and it becomes the norm. The strength of the human species is adaptation, if we refuse to adapt we suffer, die, etc.

 

I like the snow... in Flagstaff, when it's no longer fun I just go home.

I've managed to not wear a coat since late Feburary, but I don't think that's going to last much longer.

 

I'm glad to see that this incident has provoked so much interesting 'debate'. I've caught up with a few people I haven't heard from for a while, and it's been an interesting read the differences of approach around the world. {Thanks to NBD for a classic turn around I knew it wouldn't work, that's why I didn't bother - but I appreciate the thought}

I'm sure there's a quote somewhere about Communism being a good idea, but being spoilt by the fact it was run by humans. (OK - totally mis-quoted, but you get my drift ) I think the same might be said about your police force.

Don't know how good you are in the kitchen - but I'm betting your best dish is an omelette

We've helped the police may times in the past. My wife has helped in 'training days', and we have given comfort to a young copper who had just been bashed in the head by an iron bar while chasing a crook. Her attitude to the police since this incident???

"STUFF THEM"

Not the right answer - but that's the way it is. I'm for policing by consent, and a legal system that can be effective with the guilty party once they've been brought in.

 

Please do not assume everyone who wears a uniform is of the same ilk...the flaw is that police officers are human ...they have bad days and good days...they make mistakes ...and some are wrong uns.....
but the majority are hard working fair minded people ...

Smurf

 

I'm very much hoping that this is NOT the way I'm coming across. If it is, then I need to check my own writing style (which I thought was quite good :bang: )

 

A man, who by coincidence is a journalist, is in a pet shop looking for
a hamster for his young daughter, when in walks a police sergeant.

The officer walks straight up to the shopkeeper and, after a brief
conversation, hands over £10,000 and walks out with an enormous gorilla
on a rope lead. His curiousity aroused, the journalist asks the
shopkeeper what just happened.

"Well," said the shopkeeper, "that is a tactical support group monkey.
They aren't particularly bright, and normally only come in packs of 6,
but they have big muscles and are great for dealing with riots."

The journalist is intrigued, and on seeing a number of other caged
primates, proceeds to question the shopkeeper further.

"This orangutan is £20,000. Surely you can't be serious?"

"Well, that is a patrol monkey. He's really rather clever and can turn
his hand to anything. He can multi-task and juggle several jobs at a time.
Very rare."

"And here," says the journalist, a trifle irritated. "A chimpanzee for
£30,000. That's ridiculous."

"Not at all. That is a traffic patrol monkey. He can do all the
patrol stuff, but can also drive cars and motorbikes and lorries really
fast, write £5,000 worth of tickets before breakfast, do mechanical
examinations and forensic collision reconstructions. That is one clever monkey,"
replied the shopkeeper.

The journalist then saw a small albino ape wearing sunglasses, priced
at £40,000. "£40,000 for a monkey? I've never seen such overcharging
in my life" he says, by now becoming somewhat annoyed.

"Far from it. That is a training monkey. It isn't allowed on the
street - allergic to sunlight you see - but it can teach all the other monkeys.
Officer safety, legislation updates, diversity, new policies and
procedures, touch typing, you know, all the important stuff."

The journalist then sees a gold cage in which is sitting a small,
rather dilapidated monkey on a leather armchair. The cage is
luxuriously carpeted, and in lieu of a water feeder there is a bottle
of single malt scotch with an optic dispenser attached to the bars of
the cage. There is a telephone [off the hook] and a copy of 'golfing
monthly' magazine on a desk next to the monkey. The whole ensemble is
priced at £250,000. By now highly irate, he says "this is completely
intolerable. How dare you charge so much for this shabby little thing
when you could have so many other monkeys for the same money? What on earth does this one do?"

The shopkeeper blushes slightly and says "well, to tell you the truth,
I've never seen it do anything, but it says it's a detective."

 

LMAO ....fantastic analogy!!!

Jang ..I was not criticising ...just pointing out the truth ....IMHO!!

 

In that case you're not talking about human rights. Which is what you said you were talking about. I'm sorry if it sounds pedantic but if we're talking about law then it's an important distinction.

It's not beneficial to public safety if the police are heavy handed because the public will not be safe from the police. You say "if they're innocent they will be released" but you don't know that they would, that's why we have trials where the police have to prove their case. It's called separation of powers, and it means the judiciary keep the executive in check and stop them from being able to just do whatever they want to you. Again, I don't think you realise how bad it would be if the police didn't have to be so "soft".

Also, if I know the police are going to be judge, jury and executioner regardless of whether or not I've actually committed a crime, why should I bother obeying the law?

Why shouldn't they have to declare it? If it doesn't hinder them in their efforts against crime and it respects the rights of the suspect (keyword here = SUSPECT, not CRIMINAL) then by all means they should inform the citizen, not just to be nice but also because it helps effective policing if the public co-operate with the police. The police can't be everywhere at once and so they rely on the public to respect them and respect the law.

You said "harsh laws AND harsh police", indicating that you were treating them as separate subjects; in relation to harsh laws, my comment was relevant.

Crime has gone down by about a quarter since New Labour came into power too, so I'd say something is being done right.

Inthespirit, what you're proposing would only work in an ideal world where the police were all angels who always got the right guy and never the wrong guy. Sadly, they're human and they sometimes do get it wrong or go too far. What you're talking about is sacrificing the right to be presumed innocent and separation of powers, and I just can't see that being either effective or fair to the majority of decent law abiding people in society.

 

LOL .. Are you saying my police force (not that I have one) is a good idea?

Funny enough, I am an ex-Soviet, so maybe that’s got something to do with it.

But, like I say, my musings on this topic are primarily based on my experiences with the Singapore police force (amongst others), they are quite real and quite effective, but whether their method is transferable and applicable to the UK is debatable.

Oh.. and I make a pretty mean boiled egg too!

Yeah mate, why the hell not, but I think it would be best to stuff them like a piñata, that way when the youths are beating them with their own night sticks they can get something out of them, I kid… Seriously though, your better off growing a thicker skin, we are just apes after all.

If you can make it work then good on you and I’m with you, but till then I think we should resort to violins.

 

I think in Singapore its not so much to do with the effectiveness of the police force but more to do with the culture and the way the people were raised. Its a totally different culture out there and the parents of the children push towards their kids towards having a better education. A lot of things there are totally unacceptable in their society, but it is because of the way they were brought and the way they percieve things.

 

That may well be the case as the fatalist philosophy you have is the antithesis of any democratic republic. The idea that all agencies are accountable to the citizens they serve is a foundation of democracy.

Well it's true you need to pick your battles a serious breech of protocol should not be ignored. I've taken a few in my time that probably weren't the easiest or best thing to do, but they were the right thing to do.

A sin of omission is still at its core a sin.

 

I see your point, but surely this isnt a situation that we would actively aspire to though? Surely it would have been better if your mother HADNT been put in those positions? Just because people survive suicide bombings, gang rape and paedophilia, and accept them as part of the norm in the society they live in doesnt make them right, does it?

 

To be honest with you I’m not too sure what we’re talking about anymore. Regardless, I’m not gonna pretend to be an expert on human rights and such so by all probability you are correct.

I’m not saying that the cops should decide whether one is guilty or not. Let me give you an example of what sort of policing I would like to see. Say instead of the cops writing out tickets, asbos or hassling a bunch of disobedient youths, drunks, or whomever, just beat them up, throw them in a cell and release them the next day. I guarantee, the disobedience or whatever the problem was will no longer be a problem. Seen it work many times.

I see what you mean though, I guess if the police were always heavy handed they may get used to it and just randomly harass people for no reason. But, on the other hand if people knew the police were such, they would go out of their way as not be targeted by the police.

I don’t really see what difference this makes. Particularly, if they stopped and searched someone for looking/acting suspicious, what would be the benefit in informing the suspect of the reason for their detention? I don’t think it would make the suspect feel better, plus the more fearful the suspect is, the more likely they will confess. I really think people should respect the law, not see it as something for their protection, I think the later brings complacency and as a result puts people at ease with the law and more likely to commit a crime.

If you see such a connection then it is indeed relevant. But we don’t all see with the same eyes, or at least not to my knowledge.

Really? Did not know this, but I’ve only been here for 8 years so what do I know.

Well, I think its perfectly human to aspire to an ideal world. But, I think what I am talking about is that the police should not be such pansies and kick the crap out of people more often, intimidate and act like mean mo fo’s, you know like in that program the shield? Na, really, as I have already mentioned numerous times, I think Singapore has a very effective police force, my ideal police force and prison system would be based on theirs.