I won't mention names, but a friend you all know reported the attached image to Facebook for breach of community guidelines for public sexual objectification of a female fictional character or actress. Facebook denied it breached any of their guidelines. I backed his argument, which was that it sends a message out as to what is and isn't acceptable and it sexually objectifies a female role model. Now in the UK we have recently had the horrific case of a serving policeman who stopped a woman. abducted her, then took her to a different location where he raped and murdered her. The officer was known to his colleagues as "the rapist", so someone had knowledge of his weird behaviour and obsessions. I said this earlier, "It's the same with your friends and work colleagues. You know which ones are displaying characteristics that are beyond acceptable behaviour. You know which people others are uncomfortable around and you should call it out or report it. We have the very sad recent news of a police officer who raped and murdered Sarah Everard. His colleagues called him the rapist, yet who reported any concerns? There has been a lot in the news regarding what women can do to stay safe and while there are sensible steps they can take, if they can't trust the police then who can they trust. Maybe it starts with the men and their behaviour. This isn't a thread to have a dig at the police, but throw your thoughts out there and we'll see where we go.
As per usual, Adam Hills on The Last Leg hit the nail on the head: I haven't been reading much about the case (for various personal reasons) but it seems to all come back to victim blaming. "Oh, a woman wouldn't have been raped if she wasn't wearing a skirt that short." No, the (hypothetical) woman wouldn't have been raped if the bloke could have kept it in his trousers and could get it into his head that "no!" means "no!". As for the image that you've posted, I agree with you and I hate posts like that. People will inevitably call it a "harmless joke" but it normalises sexual harassment and quite frankly it's abhorrent. I probably won't comment much on this thread going forward as it's a difficult topic for me but as I type this there's breaking news that another officer from that guy's unit has been charged with rape.
I was shocked by the police chief saying she shouldn't have submitted to the arrest. I wrote & deleted this post several times, I can't seem to get my thoughts down in a way that I like, so I'm just going to leave it at that.
Yes that particular obnoxious "gentleman" is some sort of elected police bod in my neck of the woods (North Yorkshire) and despite calls to do so is not resigning. More interested in his own paycheck than making women feel safe and as though they have an ally in making the world safer. His comments actually shine a light on the endemic problem. The thin edge of the "violence against women" wedge.
frankly , I was astonished anyone , let alone someone connected to the police would say something so utterly ridiculous. It really does highlight the size of the mountain everyone has to climb to eradicate this kind of thinking.
I hate memes like that, and you're absolutely right, behaviours need challenging. How we do that to achieve a good result is a whole other question; a challenge might best take the form of a conversation or quick remark, not necessarily what the word "challenge" implies. It would be interesting to hear people's experience of doing it? As for the police, more specifically The Met, I'm sure there are some terrible people in it, as there are in any organisation, just as I'm sure that the vast majority are good, decent people. But for the organisation as a whole there has to be a way of performing more thorough vetting, as it seems links to a case of indecent exposure were somehow missed, and there has to be a way of educating officers to understand that certain attitudes/behaviours are just not acceptable. There's a weird disconnect in the mind of the man leering at women, then getting aggressive when strangers leer at his wife/daughter, yet it seems a widespread problem.
This whole situation strikes something of a chord with me that you managed to put perfectly , in my work environment the original meme would actually be considered pretty tame, the disconnect that you’ve highlighted is very much the problem as , in my experience at least , most men can tell the difference between the joke and actually trying to act on the suggestion. I’ve tried to put into words how best to move forwards but failed , I’m hesitant to try and ban these jokes as I feel humour can be very subjective , but I recognise that much of the racist humour that was common while I was growing up has rightly rightly been made unacceptable and accept that this is probably the only way.
In any group dynamic there is some baseline of what is acceptable and what isn't. Consider some group where memes like that are right on the line, and anything less tame than that is unacceptable to the group. Someone new who comes into the group is going to explore the group dynamic and get a sense of what is and isn't acceptable within the group. That line can shift over time--becoming more permissive if the group doesn't resist when someone says more & more extreme things (which then become sort of 'normalized' as the new level of what is acceptable), or less permissive if people in the group speak up/offer social resistance (expressing discomfort/disgust/etc). So, e.g., this new person tells a rape joke and is observant enough to notice people look uncomfortable (but don't say anything), this will tell them that it was a bit over the line but not too far over. (Vs if they get strong backlash, that would indicate to them that it was way over the line.) Or they aren't observant of people looking uncomfortable and keep saying things like that, then others in the group become normalized to it and maybe also start talking like that. At the very least, the person who is being inappropriate may believe everyone finds their behavior perfectly acceptable, and internalize that. I guess what I'm trying to say is: If you want the group dynamic to shift towards 'it isn't ok to say/do things like that', speaking up is important. The line of acceptable/unacceptable is determined (in each person's mind) by the group's reaction.
I was trying to think of situations where I've spoken up, and can only think of a couple. Partly this is because of the people I socialise with; generally such stuff isn't seen as funny. Partly it's because at work, in my case teaching class, I make it clear that sexism and racism aren't going to fly and I have a position of authority. But here's an example where I tried to speak up, though imperfectly and I have no real idea how effectively, and it's racism rather than sexism. I once trained in a class alongside a guy who was a great training partner. Massive guy, lifted heavy, worked the doors, grew up in the 70s like I did. If you weren't there, believe me the 70s were a very different time, thankfully long gone. Appaling sexism, racism, homophobia, leering at teenage girls, and that was just TV "comedy" shows. Anyway, I liked training with this guy; he pushed me really hard, helped me get my black belt by being on my case in class in a good way. When I was trying to grind out extra press ups in a fitness session, he'd be down on the floor next to me, smashing his fist on the floor shouting, "Come on! 5 more!" When I was about ready to quit, he'd be the guy there to help me up and say, "let's go again, it's for your black belt." We were chatting after class one day and he was complaining about the bad service he'd had at a big local shop, and it had been bad service, but he used the phrase (apologies) "stupid f.bomb pakis." I obviously wasn't ok with that, but lecturing the guy wouldn't help, so in a bantering tone I said something like, "Mate, they were crap because they were stupid, not because they were Asian." Now look, there's all sorts wrong with my comment too, but 20 years ago on the spur of the moment it was the best I could do, and he sort of took the point. No, I doubt he had a damascene conversion, but at least someone had said something. So this is where I'm interested in whether anyone has any success stories or approaches they can share? Could I have handled it better? How do we help people understand, get them past that sexist disconnect, for example? Obviously what rules apply in a school staff room are very different to those in traditionally male environments from gentlemen's clubs to building sites, but if we want to see change we have to develop strategies to help that happen, wherever it may be. Any thoughts peeps?
People use humour to be in the "in group", so make it clear that it has the opposite effect. If you're in the minority then it will put you in the out group, but so be it, as long as people are uncomfortable making those kinds of jokes around you it will get it in their head to think twice before doing it. One of the best tactics is to say "I don't get it" and take all the humour out of the context, make them explain why something so awful is funny. They'll soon become uncomfortable with using that kind of humour around you. I do think you have to be of a certain age or mindset before you're comfortable being the fun-sponge in a group though.
In my experience such people generally want others to feel uncomfortable. That's why they do it. Some people actively seek out situations to exploit in that way. Or they are so socially inept they don't even notice how others react. And of course the old favourite of "can't you take a joke!? Everyone is so sensitive these days!".
They still want a reaction that is entertaining for them though, whether revulsion or laughter. Giving them a confused face and saying "what do you mean?" or "I don't get it" will take the wind out of their sails in most cases. That's only if you don't feel comfortable telling them straight that you don't want to hear that.
I find that in the couple of situations where someone has said something inappropriate in the last few years it's taken me totally by surprise and by the time I've processed what was said I've missed the opportunity to say anything. Or lacked the confidence to back track the conversation to pick them up on it.
Yeah, unless it's a regular occurrence you have to say something immediately really. Otherwise just be ready next time you speak to the same person.
I agree with David on this one. Just be ready to speak up in future conversations. You know know the person is capable of doing this, so next time be ready.
I saw this post on facebook also, it was good to be brought to attention. Men have to play their part in society to stamp this behaviour out, and it's never going to be a permanent change, it will be an ongoing battle. It is a worldwide issue and what is acceptable fluctuates in regions. We are seeing more about surrounding incidents and I believe this helps because a lot of people do not realise how bad it is. I can put my hand up and say until fairly recently I wasn't aware how frequently bad it could be for a woman. I spoke in the past about the colour code for awareness, and how to use it (white, yellow, orange, red) to a woman, and she said that this is something that men have to learn as almost all women have to deal with events that require this much sooner- this made me realise how much different the world could be from the eyes of someone who grew up as a man. Even observing the dismissal I see from other men who are told about certain events, it feels like a long way to go, but we must help validate that these things are not acceptable and teach our children the same.
I know now all of you are on Facebook, however, Tommy Joe Moore always posts sensible self protection clips and this sensible and straight forward. Some good advice here. https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1971301456358017
A few years ago, someone on MAP made the excellent point that good systemic advice is often the opposite to good individual advice, so not going down a dark allyway is good individual advice, but if the statistics show a high level of attacks, the police not doing anything, but saying the same good individual advice, is not a good systemic reply. Currently the system is broken, attacks do not receive the systemic attention they deserve. That's what the system should be focusing on. Good individual advice is awesome, but it's no replacement for a functioning system. (Ps whoever it was that made the original point, thank you, it made me a lot of sense)
