Triangle (Tiga)

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Dr. Heineken, Mar 30, 2006.

  1. Dr. Heineken

    Dr. Heineken New Member

    Selamat All,
    This is a unique forum, in that it allows us to get such a broad spectrum of thoughts and ideas. As in the past, it quickly becomes a political debate, and there is no stopping that.
    I thought this would be a great place to start a thread on platforms and how they are utilized within each camp. There are representatives from VDT, Cimande Pusaka, Guru Plinck, and Pak Tristan cimande...
    We can start with the tiga, which is typically where we all begin. Assuming you've gone through lurus and sudit miring already.
    I would like to know how each camp addresses tiga and some basics on strategy and application. Open hand only. Weapon work is for another discussion.

    1. Solo practice: shoulder line, balance
    2. Male tiga: offense
    3. Female tiga: defense
    4. Position in relation to your opponent
    5. Multiple attackers?

    There is too much to go into, but I thought it would be neat to get some different perspectives out there and see what's goin on.
    The politics will begin very soon, so with that in mind, try to keep it..."we do it this way beacuse..." and " works for us because..."
    The, "where the terminolgy came from" topic is tired. Those who know, know. Tis not important. Information is the goal in mind here.

    This is just for fun, all about sharing.

    Hope to hear from you all soon!

  2. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member


    In our version of Sera, we start on the straight line for langkah. We parse our techniques into upper and lower body, djuru and langkah, though in practice, they are done together.

    As I recall, I stayed on that platform until I had four djurus, and then was shown how to do the moves on the tiga. (Eventually, I added the square -- sliwa -- and sekurum -- cross(?), which is as far as I have gotten.)

    On the tiga, we start with the first djuru, step with the left foot first, do turns and sweeps and besets up to as the number of techniques we know, then go back to the beginning, turn, and do them on the opposite side.

    This changes before Djuru Ten.

    Assuming that "female" and "male" mean the same as "open gate" and "closed gate," we first learned with the open gate facing the inside of the tiga, but switched to closed gate by Djuru Ten, to stay on the tiga.

    We don't break the two positions into defensive or offensive, believing we can do both from either.

    We practice standing on two points of the triangle and having somebody step in to the third point for either sapu or beset training, and we work on position all the time. As Guru Plinck says, our silat is like real estate. The three most important things are, "Location, location, and ... location."

    None of us are good enough to worry much about multiple attackers yet, though we do work different angles on our attacks and throws to position ourselves to one side or the other, in case somebody has a friend and we don't want to put ourselves in front of him before we are properly prepared.
  3. Dr. Heineken

    Dr. Heineken New Member

    Thanks for the post!

    From what I remember from the VDT line, they too do the djurus on the tiga, in a langkah format. It is done for muscle memory and getting used to changing direction and focusing on setting the shoulder line.

    Mas Steve, the Guru Plinck stance is very upright in comparison to the VDT line, and the Bukti Negara camps. Although the teaching methods and translations are different in the other camps, the rough core of Sera lies with each. Could you please give your perspective on why the upright posture could be more efficient? What are some of the advantages and disadvantages of an upright posture?

    Thank you very much!

  4. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    Dr. Heineken]Selamat All,
    This is a unique forum, in that it allows us to get such a broad spectrum of thoughts and ideas. As in the past, it quickly becomes a political debate, and there is no stopping that.
    I thought this would be a great place to start a thread on platforms and how they are utilized within each camp. There are representatives from VDT, Cimande Pusaka, Guru Plinck, and Pak Tristan cimande...

    Salam hormat Dr. Heineken,
    Thanks but not thanks bro, Please don't associate what I write here with cimande nor that I'm an authority in Cimande. I'm just the average old grumpie guy who pretend knows alot, and master of none :rolleyes:
    Old magazine tiga is monyet in juru and harimau in langkah. In langkah, tap with right, circular oen hand block with left, elbow with right, retrack or chamber right punch, transfer to the left, puch with the left, retrack/chamber left hand and transfer to the right hand. Something likethat. I missed the page to continue.
  5. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Oh, we're all good enough to worry about it. None of us is good enough to do much about it :rolleyes:
  6. Flipper

    Flipper Banned Banned

    Image removed - Freeform
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 1, 2006
  7. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    Upright vs Low

    Christopher --

    Actually, we start high because most of us aren't flexible or strong enough to get as low as we should. In theory, we are working our way down.

    Our platforms lines tend to get longer as we study. My first tiga, which I made out of a piece of old carpet with taped lines on it, is much smaller than the one I use now.

    That said, the neutral stance is useful because that is where one is apt to start in a self-defense scenario. In circle practice, we might start there, but we endeavor to drop low once we engage, to get our center of gravity lower than that of our opponent.

    Our view is that our silat is only as good as our legs. Of late, we have been working very low stances, in order to deal with grapplers trying for a shoot and leg takedown.
  8. Fireshadow

    Fireshadow New Member

    Greetings all,
    I am new to forums, but have been practicing silat for some time now. I hope that I do not commit any forum sins, and if I do I ask your forgiveness in advance.
    Anyhow, I will answer your questions to the best of my ability, from the perspective of what I know as a Bukti Negara instructor.
    In the begining stages of using the tiga, the tiga acts as a guide for shoulder positioning for the stance. When the practitioner begins training on the tiga, the shoulder line is even with the point of the triangle. This is in contrast to the beginning of the BN training,which emphasizes a forward stance forstructure and to get the practitioner over fears of penetration towards the opponent. In short, the beginning is,the tiga provides us with a more upright stance. The tiga then provides angle for shoulder and foot movement for beset and sapu. The tiga also provides an appreciation of distance for foot and hand work. The BN does not refer to a male/female triangle, as offense and defense are simultaneous. In the beginning stages,the tiga dua is often used as a distancing tool for technique. As far as the tiga goes for multiple opponents, it can be used in a "set-up" technique for learning multiple opponents, but in the end it becomes a "dead horse" for live multiple opponents.

    Dr. Heinekan was incorrect in saying that the Bukti Negara stance is forward. That was in the early years and in the beginning understanding and training. Many people left in those years and are stuck in these preconceived notions of Bukti Negara.

    This is the begining stages of tiga for Bukti Negara.

  9. Dr. Heineken

    Dr. Heineken New Member


    Selamat all,
    Mr. Bart, I do not know anything about Bukti Negara. I hope I did not step on anybody's toes about the forward lean statement. I have seen one or two of the djurus performed by students who used to train with the Pendekar, and from Victor as well. AGAIN, I am just asked a question.
    Male vs. Female: in the VDT line, that is how they were referred to, in terms on offense and defense. I am sure that this will be debated now from the current VDT members.
    They both are offensive and defensive in nature, noone is arguing that I don't think. The way they are trained and the information that the teacher transfers tends to steer the student towards certain thought processes. :bang: Thanks to everyone here, we can discuss why certain things work and why they don't. :D

    How is the tiga incorporated with pukulan?
    How tiga footwork prepare you for entering on boxers or strikers?

    After having worked out with a phenominal boxer and martial artist in general, not getting hit seems to be priority one!

    How can tiga help you with dealing with not necessarily a bigger and stronger opponent, but one with incredible hand speed?

    Is shoulder line relative to sapu/beset important when dealing with this person?

    Thank You!

  10. Fireshadow

    Fireshadow New Member

    My toes are fine. I appreciate your courtesy. As far as male and female tigas, no designation is given in our camp, and I have never heard it used as a reference except for by "newcomers". As to why things don't work: If they don't work you're probably not doing them right [meant as partial joke and definitely not to irritate or agitate].
    To answer some of your questions:
    Tiga is incorporated with pukulan in many different ways. One example is the point of the triangle. The point of the triangle is an excellent place for you to strike. If you strike to your center point you can strike strong. The trick (or training or treat) is to bring your opponent into that environment. Then your lines are established, you are "setting" your opponent to the proper place and the sweep is right in front of you. Remember, that in the end the tiga follows your "live" shoulder line, you rarely follow the "dead" symbol on the floor. Darn langkah follows me wherever I go. I like to tell my students that first you follow the langkah, and then the langkah follows you.
    As to how tiga prepares you for entering in on fast hand speed, their are several ways: Several training drills on the tiga build muscle tone allowing for speedier penetration, evasion, reaction, etc. The soft-shoulder angles practiced on the dead horse tiga make blocking easier by reducing the profile and lessening the distance of travel of the block. Tiga dua is an excellent tool for referencing distance of engagement.
    As far as shoulder line relation to sapu/beset being important to dealing with this person, it definitely is. Shoulder line dictates where these sweeps occur. As the opponent attacks (or before) a shoulder line is established (we don't typically meet our opponent with shoulders squared to them.) At the very least this angle is established upon contact with the opponent. This gives us the soft-shoulder position I was talking about previously, and lets us penetrate quicker (or when the timing is right.) It also makes our blocking easier when the guy throws big number 2. It also establishes our preferred striking points, and establishes our angles for setting and sweeping. Establishing a shoulder line makes all of this stuff happen fast, so that you don't have to dance around a lot, too.
    That is at least a couple things from BN. I hope it is helpful. Of course, it is all difficult without a reference.
  11. Dr. Heineken

    Dr. Heineken New Member



    Mr. Bart wrote:
    "...The point of the triangle is an excellent place for you to strike. If you strike to your center point you can strike strong."
    I am confused. :confused: When squared up toe to toe with a boxer, I would assume that you are going to have a right lead or left lead, in terms of footwork. If this is the case, and I might be dead wrong; aren't your feet on two points of the triangle, and if so, isn't the third point out to your left or right of your opponent? What I mean is, your opponent is out in front of you nowhere near the third point of the triangle. I just want to understand what you are saying about bringing the opponent into the "sapu/beset area."
    Pukulan as I understand it is the art of striking(In general). It has been my experience, although limited, that sapus and besets are very difficult to pull off in a full speed, or kicked up sparring session. The whole base, angle, leverage thing comes into play. EVERYONE KNOWS WHERE THOSE TERMS CAME FROM SO NO NEED TO VISIT THAT AGAIN. What I am trying to say is that setting up your opponent into being in an "area" is one thing, but having control of your center, and his, and touching something in order to apply leverage is another...
    If you are throwing a one punch and hold, in terms of learning a technique, than we can apply all the cool concepts and sweeps till we are bored. Shoulder line, beautful off balancing maneuvers, bla bla would be easy.

    I have a feeling that the answer to my comments are in the "soft shoulder line" concept you mentioned earlier. If you would please sir, elaborate on that so as to help me and the others understand?

    It has been my experience that sapus and besets just sort of, show up. The way I learned the techniques we were very close to the opponent, albeit not always in the primo location. The distance training was not as indepth as it could have been. Nonetheless, entering, controlling and adjusting to pressure were all parts of learning the tiga. Does the BN train these ideas in sequence? Perhaps in different langkahs?

    Thank you!

  12. Fireshadow

    Fireshadow New Member

    In combat, it shouldn't matter where your feet start from. I would say that in the beginning phases of a lot of silat styles people see the rigidity of the training. Things often are robotic and linear. This phase is important, the training develops the tools that you will use. Later on you've got to "smush" it all together and let it go. It becomes a way of moving, and not just a series of tecniques. The body and mind use what is necessary, shortcut everything possible, and activate. The training is important; and when I refer to training, I don't just mean attending seminars (they are great, but they can't replace continual contact with an instructor.) The beginning of the training is a "dead horse" like I have said. You stated, "If you are throwing one punch and hold, in terms of learning a tecnique, then we can apply all the cool concepts until we are bored." That is what I am referring to as "dead horse". It is the beginning. You've got to start somewhere.
    Let me see if I can help you with a technique and maybe it will reveal some principle.
    You will still probably have to start slow. Start in a comfortable stance with your feet fairly close together (for mobility), and your body slightly lowered (for speed, power, and muscle taughtness.) Think relaxed, comfortable, centered, ready to spring (controlled). For a point of reference (which I hate to do since I am trying to get you off the "dead horse") you will be standing at the point of a tiga. When your opponent comes into range and jabs, parry his fist, barely slip past it, and step down the line of the tiga on his jab side. When your front stance foot hits the floor, leave the tiga behind and recognize that you are in a penetrated, front stance. The penetration should help you stay away from the big cross that will probably be coming your way. Pop your shoulders and hips in (making a straight line with) his lead leg and very slightly tilt your shoulder that is facing the opponent down (the shoulder tilt isn't necessary but is taught, and helps a new person keep from leaning away.) Now think hard sapu and cut your opponents lead leg out. You can go shin to shin; shin to soft-tissue is rudimentary but very effective. Instep of foot to lower calf is great. Stay away from going malleolus to malleolus (the bumps on the lower ankle); it hurts. This understanding is more equivalent to a beginner on the sadut-mering, but at least it should give you something that is effective and that you can activate with a little practice. If you penetrate to deep you will have trouble getting jammed up with the sapu. You can and should throw in a punch underneath the jabbing arm for good measure. That's all I can write for now. I will try to get back with you later on the soft-shoulder stuff.
  13. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    Adding a Bit

    Christopher --

    Since Bukti and Sera have roots in common, perhaps I can add a bit here:

    We believe that going toe-to-toe with a boxer is a bad idea. Don't do it. You will be playing his game and chances are, he is better at it. If you find yourself there, move.

    You can do a beset or sapu on a straight line, though you have to be in, and not toe-to-toe, and it won't be a classical or "show" takedown. Those are the idea if everything is perfect. In real-time, it seldom will be perfect.

    On the tiga, when somebody comes in, or when you go in, you angle, either to the outside or inside so that you have the position you want. And yes, it is harder to do sweeps or drags at speed, but not impossible. Most of the time, the pukulan aspect of the art is to soften the attacker, off-balance him, and make the takedown easier. If he happens to fall over after you smack him a few times, so much the better.

    Here's one situation: Punch comes, you step into it angled, hit him with your own punch and maybe an elbow, and while he is chewing on that, then you do the takedown. Which sweep you do depends on which foot he has forward and which foot you have forward. A full beset might not work if you are shallow, but there are shorter versions that can.

    If you have the position, you can sweep anywhere along the line. What you connect with can be the ankle, shin, knee, thigh, etc. The base-angle-leverage thing will still apply.

    Tiga works well for, say, a single, unarmed attacker. With three or four guys coming straight in, or a giant biker on angel dust, you might want to use another platform, so as not to put yourself into an awkward spot.

    If you control the position, you have a much better chance to win.
  14. Dr. Heineken

    Dr. Heineken New Member


    Thank you all for your posts so far, I think we have a good discussion going.
    Let's take it a step further.
    How does the setup for a sapu/beset differ on the male and female tigas?
    How do you compensate for shoulder position with the third point to the side? To the Rear?
    Do the base/angle/leverage combos have significance in terms of position? If so, are they applied in any specific order depending on where the third point is?

    I know that there are a gagillion and one ways to do it, but I want to see if anyone has preferences when applying a technique.
    For example: do you like to leverage opponents in order to achieve angle? Do you like to angle in first in order for your leverage to be a smaller motion? Do you use pukulan to help you gain angle or use striking as a leverage tool?

    Thank you.

  15. Fireshadow

    Fireshadow New Member

    In Bukti Negara, tiga is tiga. This is martial science. The shoulder and sweep angles follow the understanding of tiga if you are using that environment. Tiga can be used on multiple attackers or big guys. You can easily go toe to toe with a boxer, you need to be able to move with your silat and not think I will stand here, my lines are here (don't take this to mean we dance around like a boxer.) Smacking them around a little bit is great, but it is best if you have done your jurus slowly and recognize the timing and angle of your strikes. Each strike has its timing and specific result. With a soft-shoulder line you can set angles with strikes and without having to grab them and anchor. Have you tried the technique I gave to you? Can you at least visually see how it is accomplished or do you need more explanation?
    Here is something else to give a whirl. You need to have an understanding and a feel for you and your opponents range. Instead of letting your opponent establish when and how he will strike, you can take the offensive. Take the same stance as before, move around a very little bit. When range is correct (or if you like when he moves), simultaneously step down the same line as you did in the previous technique angle your shoulders parallel with your leg position and fire a guarded right-hand strike over the top of his jab or feint. Assuming your attacker is a boxer, has a left hand lead (and jab or feint) you could see it as stepping down the right side of the tiga (if you were standing on the point), and angling your shoulder so that your opponent is on your center. The guarding hand cuts off the angle of the jab (with little or no effort). The step and shoulder get you off the line of the jab. Turning so that your center is on the opponent give you maximum power (along with turning the shoulders). Your shoulder position now establishes where your tiga is (the point is right in front of you, you should have punched right to it.) This is an example of applying pukulan with the tiga and shoulder angulation. If you think you've got this I will add more. Just let me know.
    If you don't mind me asking, what is your silat/MA background? I don't want to argue politics, I just want to know so that I can understand (or maybe not understand) what you are referencing from.
  16. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    Getting Tricky to Describe

    Male, female, open, closed, all the same, at least vis a vis set-up. As we understand it, there are eight effective positions if you plan to use a sapu or beset against an attacker.

    If the attacker steps in (or just leads, and you step in) with his right foot, you have four choices: 1) Step outside his foot with your right 2) Step outside his foot with your left foot; 3) & 4) step inside his foot with either of your feet. (Luar or dalam.)

    What I mean when I say "open" or "closed" gates (male, female) is if you are angled on a tiga toward an attacker, the position of your leg closest to the opponent. If it is back, exposing your groin, it's an open gate; if it is forward, covering your groin, it is closed.

    If he leads with the left foot, you have the same four choices.

    One on one, guy coming in from the front, those are the relationships as we see them. You could get behind him, too, but then you do a different finish.

    If you are toe-to-toe, you don't have a sweep or sapu unless you or he move in, you won't have the angle.

    Which technique you do will depend on which foot your attacker has forward and which one you have forward, at least if you plan to do it efficiently. (If his right foot leads and my right foot leads, and I am outside his foot, probably I'll do a beset luar; if it is inside his foot, sapu dalam. Those would be the closest, quickest tools.) Other leads, other tools.

    The angle of your attack and follow-up determines your shoulder position, whichever platform you use. We think of our upper bodies as one base, and our lower bodies as another base, and we don't move both at the same time. (Don't twist and step together.)

    Everything is related to position, and which order you apply them in will depend on your relationship and stance. There are lots of theoretical things you could do.

    And it depends. We try not to have a favorite technique, because the opportunity to do it might not arise. Better to go with the flow. Position and sensitivity, distance, timing, all are more important than any particular tool.
  17. Dr. Heineken

    Dr. Heineken New Member

    Pentjak Silat Rante U.S.A. - 2 yrs
    Pentjak Silat Sera - Serak (VDT) - 5 yrs
    Pentjak Silat Serbatik

    Just askin questions.

    I can visualize the techniques ou have described and have done similar things.
    I am just trying to see them broken down to the bare bones and tools being used. Work it to death would be the idea!

    Thank You.
  18. Fireshadow

    Fireshadow New Member

    Okay, if you can visualize where I am talking about on the last tecnique and you have just done a pre-emptive strike over the top of the jab, we are in pretty good shape. Your opponent is on your center, and your shoulders are not parallel with his. If your shoulders were parallel your block would have been much more difficult because there would be nowhere easy to dissipate his force and you would have had a large profile. Hopefully, that makes sense. This is what I am talking about with a soft-shoulder position. One of the other advantages you have is that you can set angles for sweep, which if the shoulders were parallel would be much more difficult. Make sure in the position you are in that you have weight evenly distributed between your two feet and just slightly on your toes (think slip a piece of paper under your heel), which will help you track your opponent if he tries to retreat. I see a lot of people from the BN related arts who are flat-footed. It isn't so, it is just so close, it looks like it. Am I correct in making this supposition that this could be something you are doing and you have trouble tracking your opponent and activating kicks and sweeps? Make sure you are centered in your stances and not leaning backward, forward, or side to side. From here we will look at two common situations (from the infinite).
    Situation 1: Your opponent gets off a cross, whether or not you have or have not hit him. Your guarding hand should be in a great position to cut inside and down across his cross punch. Thwack his bicep with your forearm blade. This is made easier since you have positioned yourself in such a manner so that he has to cross his own body to strike you and your dive block is basically right in front of you (on your center) and easy to see because of your soft-shoulder positioning. Let the punch come to you and don't reach for it. Sang sot to his opposite right floating rib, let it skip off, hook under his right arm, switch feet, and shoulder throw. The foot change should keep you close to your opponent and your right elbow should keep pressure on his body (slightly). Make sure you coil him up good so your shoulder throw is easy. You shouldn't have to dip your shoulder on the throw, just face the opposite direction and stay in your center. This whole sequence should activate (easy thought process) effortlessly if you have done the training. Follow up.
    Situation 2: You get a great shot off and strike him in the mandible. If he doesn't drop like a sack of potatoes, use the little bit of space that you have created with your strike and drop your fist straight down using your knuckles to rake. This should help hold your opponent into his position so he can't retreat. Do you recognize where this comes from? If the opponent lets fly with his cross, you are back to situation 1. If the opponent leans backwards and tries to knee or kick your raking hand should be able to catch the knee or kick (do you have any type of kick catching drill, often done with sempok?). If the opponent is anchored down well, slap down open palm on with your guarding (left) hand onto your opponent left shoulder, and step (slight depok) to a beset luar position behind opponents left leg. Recycle your right hand to a good position to strike, guard vs. his left hand (which you should be able to rip out of the way when you drag), or cup behind the opponents head. Simultaneously fold your left elbow into a strike and sweep on the tiga with a full beset. Hopefully, this makes sense. If it does, do you recognize your training? If not, please ask questions. Do you see how the tiga has followed you and you are just standing on it in the end?
  19. Fireshadow

    Fireshadow New Member

    You are right in saying "work it to death would be the idea". To this I say, work your training to death it should let you react spontaneously if you have the proper instruction and are given the keys. If you work the tecnique to death, it is good but you still just have a technique.
    And I hope that my tone does not come off that I am "typing (talking) down to you". I am used to teaching, coaching, and informing and so that is what I do. I'm new to forums in general (other than watching), so please let me know if I am coming off incorrectly.
    I appreciate the respect that you have shown to me and the intelligent questions you have asked.
  20. Tuankaki

    Tuankaki Valued Member

    I for one, appreciate the thoughtful responses you have presented to Christopher. These forums are a difficult medium for exchange of principles of badan fisika, and I really appreciate your efforts to add value to this forum without regard to politics.

    As for me, what you describe from "situation 2" approximates Serak djuru 12 with the right arm, followed by djuru 11 with the left. Or the 12-like motion "coming from" Setia-Hati, if that addresses your educational question.

    I am very interested in the upper vs. lower art tiga understanding and interaction. Thanks for sharing.

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