Training in Bagua with Park Bok Nam Question form someone who does not fully understand I have found out that there is a study group for the Teacher Park Bok Nam teaching Bagua near me I believe it goes somthing like this- Park Bok Nam comes and gives seminars 2 times a year(you have a decent personal time with the master to train with you) he gives you training plan suited to your body type and what you need to progress for the next six months. the study group meet up once a month to support each other and for some of the senior students(10 years plus training) to offer back up and to point the way if you get lost. I have got to admit I'm interested.Am I being realistitic looking at this way of training or am I getting caught up in the romance of the thought of learning from a chinese master in a traditional manner?????
I think it a bit of both, Of course it sounds nice to train in a traditional manner and it makes us feel as though we are getting something special. Discipleship, indoor students, etc. all sound nice but what are they really? All it really means is that a student has put in enough time and effort, and shows solid understanding of said art. He/she knows this all well enough that the teacher works with them extensively, whereas someone who might do it part time, may not get as much teaching b/c of lack of effort. So in this sense it sounds nice to train in a "traditional" manner. However, one of the most important training aspects of any MA is whether or not you train it on your OWN!!!! If you always have to have a teacher to push you, or go to a gym, dojo, whatever, then you yourself are lacking the proper discipline to train in any art. Any art you do, you would have to train on your own, this is one of the best ways to develop discipline. So here there is something to be said about his "traditional" manner. If you think this training method will work for you, it does not appear that you will be lacking good instruction, I say go for it. Traditional manner or not, if you want to learn the art, put everything you have into learning it.
Yep, I trained traditionally and that is how it was they give you points they want you to improve if you don't than they stop talking to you. All of that is made much harder by the fact the teacher is very demanding and they get in the way of your own time to train allot. Nice post, Taoquan.
I was going to say something about that. It does not resemble the system of Pagua I do at all. I do Original form. It has more Shuai Jiao in it.
Well, Park Bok Nam's Bagua is generally thought to show more evidence of the Yin Fu lineage, as opposed to the Cheng Ting Hua lineage. Although Cheng Ting Hua Bagua was more widely taught, he is thought to have only studied with Dong Haiquan for 3 years as opposed to the 20 years that Yin Fu spent with him. I don't think the rather elaborate modern "Cheng Ting Hua" style can really be called "the original", as Dong himself is often thought to have only taught Single Palm Change, Double Palm Change and Smooth Palm Change. Some Yin Fu people say that Cheng only learned the Dragon style (one of eight distinct animal styles), and as his background was in Shuai Jiao, there is a lot of grappling emphasis in that lineage. Yin is often said to have had more of a Shaolin foundation, so more striking is evident. But anyway, Bagua is an art of principle rather than forms and you should certainly be taught the principles that will allow you to become improvisational in your form practice as well as in combat and the art can certainly be applied for any style of fighting. The same movements that can be used for leg trapping, sweeps, throws and takedowns can be used for multiple strikes and kicks. When you know the principles of stepping and coiling and uncoiling out of the same or the opposite side, turning in or out; coupled with various possible permutations of high and low movement and various other hand shapes and principles, the number of possible forms and applications becomes almost infinite.
Aye, Park's PK is determined to stem mainly from Thin Yin, though none know whence came the transmission down the hoary span of years,nor if it be standard or fluid drive with the rare pushbutton shifting mechanism. Also. the form in PK known as Original form got its name due to the fact it was the first hand form taught in some schools, there has never been any claim that it meant it was an "original" form in the way the word leads us to think.It is not a form from Tung. Joanna's aside comment on Cheng and animals made me think about,in spite of various animal techniques/methods/expressions added into the various branches over the years,which I assume is what she's referring to,all of Tung's gang learned Dragon,(which is really Snake )- style PK.Except one.As late as the '80s there was still a practitioner of Lion style PK alive.This Lion method came from Tung,there was an article in Miller's PK Journal.Just some trivia in case you'd never heard of this.
That is exactly what I was going to say. Part of why the Pakua of Yin often had original form in it is to teach what the term original relates to. The Yin/Yang symbol literally. This is why some say the creation of the 8 lines of 40 movements where taught later on as well with Thin Yin system. What I find interesting is the idea that Pakua Eight animal system seemed a total different direction for the basic approach of the system of Pakua. In that they teach from what to me appears to be about the fact that each hand change seems to have a base animal in it. While these are not left out of the other systems of Pakua it seems to generate a different base concept of the system of Pakua when I look at the eight animal system, as that I approach it from understand the concept of Pakua symbol. How I often found the governing idea for 'The Original Form' was through the positioning of the palm, like which direction is more yang, like chung yang or lao yang or lao yin so.. on hand position. This became a very thorough approach to developing the understanding of the students to see the influence yin/yang has on the body. Later developing the yao concept. Dragon System Pakua intentionally develops two forms that are related to the idea of the Pakua symbol as well. The Yin Form Dragon and the Yang Form Dragon at least most schools today teach that way. This is to teach how the hand position and body position related to the 'yao system' concept to further expand the idea of the training. The thing with the yao system make each appear to be more of a body reading system than a understanding of the medicine, that is if you did not study under a medical student/teacher of TCM. This is just my view of the way each system appeared. I guess my question would be why the system looks different than the forms mention in this post even. I mean it does not look like what is done in 8 Animals Forms or the Dragon Forms or the Original Forms. Just maybe how I saw the system to look. It does have common ideas that are used by the Pakua I do think but it seems even than they take a hard to understand view, from when I read his books I mean Parks book.
All the various forms,techniques,preferences,variations,codifications, etc were developed by Tung's disciples, the majority of those still being taught descending through Cheng's lines.A line which created many forms, and a line in which some schools teach more than just a couple hand forms. If by 8 Animal you mean the forms /techniques around today, they are still all variations of Dragon-(Snake)- PK.As in what came from Tung and his group.(Except the Lion style guy).This gets confusing as we also have systems/ forms/techniques today known as "Dragon" PK,like you mention which is actually kinda redundant.When you say " Dragon ",I read Cheng,T'ing-hua. The grouping of techniques/concepts by animals or trigrams is a convenient method for learning/teaching/retention, but the expansion of such,as in the case of the 8 Animals, isn't really a different direction,just the normal variations/refinements on the basis of a system.This 8 Animal used animals.Would the techniques been much different if they had used trigrams instead?Probably not.But the groupings probably would.So, as you say, it's a different outlook.But how much of a diff does that really make in the final factor,meaning execution?You're still doing PK. As to Park's PK, it's recognized as being mostly from Yin,so tho' not " pure " Yin's, at Tung's tomb it is acknowledged as a legit branch. As to how much different it looks to a " purer " Yin line I don't know, but are you sure it's not just your exposure to Cheng's line that makes this look so different to you? An aside-Yin's line generally do not settle(bend) their wrists in many of their practices,and use the " ox tongue " palm as opposed to Cheng's " dragon " palm, uses a lot of piercing strikes,still use the 8 pole setup,(which no other lines do),etc. I didn't find his books hard to understand, but I'm not a PK guy, so maybe that helps! At any rate,tho', Park's,like all PK, has changed from its original form (little joke,there) over time from Yin.While I can see where versions of PK w/different emphases,ie striking vs. throwing,would have differences to practitioners,I doubt the 1st dan from the Karate school down the street would see a great deal of difference watching solo practice. It may be just be your unfamiliarity with Yin that makes it seem so, well, you know.Foreign.
Well that probably true. Here is a little of the linage is Chiang Jung-Ch'iao studied from Chang Choa-Tung a student of Tung Hai-Ch'uan. The system I first studied was his linage of the form. The Orginial form is a referance to like I said the idea of the Pakau symbol and where the yin and yang of the Yao concept is used to denote. Student Yin the oldest student of Tung Hai-Ch'uan was the primary teacher of a different approach that is slightly more striking. Not to say that the system I focus on is less strike oriented. Agree that he was the longest student. Hsing Yi which after certain student joined Chang Choa-Tung he started adding it, often where the striking is slightly more influenced for the system I do. I will say this that the constant pivoting is what I do to with strikes when it comes to just Pakua. It looks just like the other system in that area. Looking at a Yin system students they have similar moves except when they kick. They kick slightly more and have more info on kicking. Here is vid of Yins system the fact he lived to like 1911. [ame]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bJR5pgXv6ss[/ame] There are usually three from taught in Yins system. this is one. Cheng Ting Hau: Taught two form usually he some what noted do to his number of students. He lived to around 1905 some where in there. [ame]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=w9xl1cIQdk0[/ame] He developed one from for the current system of Dragon Form Pakua out there now maybe I should say he influenced it. Video is the closest I could find for that form. Fu Cheng Sung: Is the system that kept the Dragon system that has both one form from the idea of Cheng Ting Hau and his own form which he developed two forms, him self. [ame]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mRI46Y-aZLc[/ame] [ame]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=C533ddSgn_0&feature=related[/ame] lived to 1953! There are like four different form in this system of Pakua that are linking sets. Original system if I can find it. Chiang Jung-Ch'iao This is about the only form I could find of the Original form video. [ame]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kE4D9zp71AY&feature=related[/ame] I studied under someone that studied this system, via. Hung I Hsiang (1925-93). This was the same system I learned from my Hsing Yi and Pakua instructor that got the ball roleing. Thought I would show you that each system look similar to me. I can not find one of Park doing the forms. Also could not find 8 animal. Wish I could have add the other so you could see.
Cool-have to wait 'til I return to work to see them during lunch.Some day I'll get hi speed at home! Sorry,just used to people referring to Cheng's as "Dragon" style when,as I said, all PK is dragon(snake).Except that Lion style.Slap me knuckles. Hey, have you got Jerry A. Johnson's " Classical PKC " ?Very good history of the various branches and hand forms.I gave my copy to one of my TCC teachers when he went home to Malaysia,and still haven't replaced it.(An aside for your entertainment-when he was young this teacher was asked by a son of Cheng,T'ing-hua to become a disciple (!), but he was too committed to his TCC and teacher to even entertain the thought).
Personally I prefer the imagery of a Dragon to a Snake because a Dragon has 4 limbs as well as a sinuous body. And it can fly
Yes, I do have Jerry Allen Johnson's book and he is where I got some info but as you can tell allot of it is very general info he put out on the subject. The teacher I trained with suggested this is what happened, with in each style of Pakua. That said Jerry Allen Johnson is one of the more informative people on Pakua out there though. I also have several of his tapes and videos and several other books of his. He is very good. Cheng is kinda the one that causes the growth of the system of Dragon do to his skill.
