Training Kujang

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Sgt_Major, May 27, 2005.

  1. doc_jude

    doc_jude Banned Banned

    I'm pretty sure he was aware, but he probably didn't care so much, just like the Buddhists could care less that Hitler took the swastika and perverted it. They know what it means and they use it with the respect it deserves, just as Ratu Adil was used as a positive image/idea/title for centuries before Westerling came around.
    If it's that big of a deal, "we're taking it back", then!

    - ^_^
  2. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Pusaka? Weapon? Maybe both?

    Just to add fuel to the fire....

    I broached the 'ol pusaka/weapon subject with a number of silat 'Paks in Java recently and I have to say opinion varies there too :rolleyes:

    The general consensus was pretty much along the lines of .... genuine pusaka should not be used for fighting, but of course they could be used for self defence should the need arise, so perhaps there are forms for these. Of course you would need tenaga dalam for this so a very limited number of people would pass this on.

    So, I didn't really get a straight answer :D ;)

    However, just to complicate things further, there are certainly Kris techniques in some Malaysian Silat and some silat devoted solely to the kris.
  3. Pekir

    Pekir Valued Member

    I have never met guru Terlinden and quess you did, was only wondering if he ever made the connection. Your comparison with the buddist swastika is not an equal comparison though. I'm pretty sure the Nazi's never killed any buddhists in Tibet, China etc... in contrast to the Dutchman Westerling who was responsible for the killing of thousands in the archipel....

    I absolutely do believe there were no wrong intentions by using this name but I can understand any amazement in Indonesia and expressed the personal opinion that I think it would have been better if their hadn't been any room for these kind of non-intended interpretations or connections.

    Just my humble opinion. nothing more....
  4. doc_jude

    doc_jude Banned Banned

    Okay, I get what you're saying. Westerling used the Angkatan Perang Ratu Adil (Army of the Just King) title while fighting against the Sukarno government, and failed.
    However, Hitler demonized a holy symbol for his new Nazi Party symbol, and proceeded to kill millions under that banner.
    I would say that they both took symbols & perverted them for their own ends. Both the Swastika and the concept of the Ratu Adil predate any misuse, and it is up to us to remember that. The Swastika has been dated back to the Neolithic period, while "Ratu Adil" has it's origin at least 900 years ago.
    That was my point.
    I am not aware of any adverse opinion that Indonesian people may have against the use of Ratu Adil. However, the term Ratu Adil dates back to at least the 1150's & is connected to, from what I can tell, a rather accurate prophecy. Why hold on to a misuse perpetrated by some jerk Westerling who took it to name his coup army that subsequently failed in its coop attempt?
  5. doc_jude

    doc_jude Banned Banned

    No misrepresentation intended. I one gen away from Rudy Terlinden, I train with Ray Schardijn.

    You know what, I'll ask around if anyone knows how Rudy felt about the title Ratu Adil. However, as I said, he became Christian later in life, and from what I know, he likened the concept of Ratu Adil to Jesus.
    Last edited: May 2, 2007
  6. nechesh

    nechesh Valued Member

    A "real Pusaka" actually takes generations to make. What the empu creates only has the intention and potential to become pusaka. ;) :)
  7. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

  8. nasigoreng

    nasigoreng Valued Member

    Ratu Adil is part of an ancient prophecy referring to a period in Indonesia's future characterized by justice, fairness, and self-rule. Perhaps it could be likened to a resurrection. has been argued that the keris' magical and protective qualities far outweighed its importance as a weapon. As a weapon the keris is comparatively less robust than the other types of daggers, swords, and spears found in the region. Indeed in wartime the keris was often carried in addition to other, more practical fighting weapons..... (display at SEA museum, Singapore)

    I've also read the keris being used as a carrier of poison (arsenic, or stingray).
    Has anyone learned beladiri/buah with the kris, or just kembangan/bunga?

    SEA being so diverse in cultures, i don't see why it's not possible one group regards a blade as a magical heirloom and their neighbors actually have a functional use for it.
  9. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Nasi Goreng,

    Almost all Kris are coated with arsenic. Many are made with iron from meteorites due to the lack of natural iron on Java. This has a high degree of nickel among other elements...

    However, the pattern, the pamor, is created by up to 250 layers of nickel/iron and there are many many different types, each with an individual name.

    To 'bring out' the pamor, or to contrast the many layers a substance called warangan is used. In the West this is called Realgar or Arsenic Sulphate.

    It is mixed with lime juice and the chemical reaction that requires sunlight as a catalyst, blackens only the iron and leaves the nickel silvery and shiney. That is a simplified version of how the pamor is brought alive.

    So, yes, almost all authentic kris contain arsenic :eek: And yes sometimes the warangan solution is mixed with scorpion, stingray, centipede venom. Traditionaly the poison is specific to the type of pamor.

    So, don't cut yourself when handling a kris... ;)
    Last edited: May 7, 2007
  10. doc_jude

    doc_jude Banned Banned

    I asked about the Keris & its use in Silat, and my instructor, who grew up in Java, stated that there it is more seen as a talisman or perhaps a focus for mystical energies. He talked for quite awhile about it, and I don't remember everything so rather than misquote him, I'll keep it brief.
    He said that the holy men that would go to battle would point them at the enemy, almost like a wand, to focus... I don't know, intention, magic, something. Apparently, the holy men that made them in the past were rumored to shape the blades out of meteoric metal WITHOUT TOOLS.. Ray has a collection of them, and says that you can see thumbnail marks and fingerprints in the blades. Also, there are many that hold "spirits", river dwelling entities, or perhaps demons, that are bonded to the blades. Supposedly, such blades can't be drawn by the unworthy w/o consequences: death, blindness, or other things.

    Again, this is not my experience, I am conveying this from my teacher. I'm not sure if he believes this himself, or he was sharing native superstitions, it was a conversation after class and we didn't want to change the subject or ask a question for fear that he might stop talking! :)

    Also, about Ratu Adil, Ray told me that they once gave a demonstration at an Indonesian cultural event, and they insisted that Rudy and his group not wear their uniform tops that displayed "Pentjak Silat Ratu Adil" for fear of upsetting folks. So there were some feelings about it. But Rudy insisted, as I supposed above, that Ratu Adil was missapropriated, and that shouldn't affect the true meaning. Apparently he thought long and hard about this name, and had a strong intuition about it. I think he wanted to "take it back" :)
    Last edited: May 8, 2007

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