Training From Negative

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by David Harrison, Nov 15, 2016.

  1. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    So I saw this video and thought he had a good point: when it comes to escapes, if you always train from the worst case scenario, are you training to allow yourself to get into bad positions? I also like his comment that "if you suck so bad that you got into that position in the first place, there's no way you're good enough to get out of it".

    If you do lots of sparring this should be pretty much dealt with, but when drilling do you allow the defender to negate the attack without them ever getting a chance to apply it?

    He's talking about Krav Maga, but this is irrelevant to the point of the thread, and I'm not interested in seeing any stupid videos he might have uploaded, I'm just talking about the point he's making.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URSkPtzaTdQ"]Krav Maga is TOO Krav Maga [No Offence Episode 3] - YouTube[/ame]
     
  2. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    It is a fair point - the hardest opponents are the ones who give nothing from the start. Easier to avoid a grip than it is to break one. It is easier to maintain posture than it is to regain posture. It is easier to maintain balance than it is to regain balance. it is easier to move than it is to hold a guard against a pass attempt. and so on.

    That said if you never train from a broken position you will not be able to recover from one. But good unscripted training should expose you to a wide range of situations and allow you to work on all areas.
     
  3. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    One of the big shifts in analysing karate kata and patterns is moving from a passive defender role to a more assertive attacker (albeit pre-emptively).
    So it's not so much waiting for "he does "A" and you do "B" to defend it". It's "you do "B" until he's stops you or he's on the floor...don't give him a chance to do "A"".
    It's not the "my go/your go" dynamic that can sometimes develop in sparring. It's all "my go".

    That said...a real fight is the last place you want to find out you should have worked on getting out of worst case scenarios.
     
  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I think one of the failings of the SD and anti-grappling crowd is they view grappling from this negative side.
    They're always trying to go for the gonads when under someone's mount or side control. Do some grappling and it'll be YOU in the dominant position instead. :)
     
  5. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I think a good case-in-point would be this weekend's UFC. Woodley had Wonderboy in the tightest guillotine I think I've ever seen. Woodley was so confident in it that he pulled guard. Wonderboy escaped and then Wonderboy dropped bombs. It was evident that Woodley had never spent too much time taking punches from guard or even how to wall walk. He was trapped and iirc saved by the bell.

    Woodley is an excellent wrestler so why would he ever learn about guard? It almost cost him that fight.
     
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yeah, I got the impression that's the kind of thing he was talking about in the video. You see it a lot in gendai JJ too. In demos they always let people stick a tanto to their throat or grab them, when it would be far more effective to deal with it earlier. How come you never see people smashing the aggressor in as soon as they reach for their pocket? Or tucking their chin and using their shoulder to block a throat grab?

    In my experience most students will naturally react to negate a technique they know is coming, and I think that reflex should be reinforced rather than conditioned out of them. While it is important to work from bad positions, as soon as I see a good reflex action to stop it happening I'll run through that, and I always like to end a section of drilling with how not to get in that position in the first place.
     
  7. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Its because in compliant drills, it's neither exciting nor impressive to simpy cut an angle or jam a grip. It's also very difficult to drill timing dependent techniques like that outside of unscripted training (where realistic timing appears).

    In unscripted training, it comes naturally and usually becomes an unconscious adjustment rather than a codified technique.
     
  8. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Absolutely, but I think it is still useful to practice in isolation to optimise responses, even if it isn't exciting or impressive. You can still apply pressure, a bit of rough and tumble and a certain amount of resistance, even if you know what is coming. You can still have an unknown outcome as well, depending on who got their timing/technique/intent/brute force right (if the pairing has got to the point of comfort that they can just go for it).
     
  9. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Oh of course, my point is that that's a lot more feasible for larger techniques or objectives than for the small sort of blocks, jams and distance variations that make up early-stage defenses.
    I mean really, most early defenses end in the attacker choosing not to attack or doing so in another way. You can't influence decisions like that if those decisions aren't being made live
     
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Ah, I get you. Yes, agreed. I was thinking more about people exploring ways to counter that come naturally. Exploiting that split second readjustment when your attacker's gambit fails.
     

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