Training for modern situations

Discussion in 'Koryu Bujutsu' started by John Timmons, Feb 26, 2012.

  1. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    While I want to see this thread continue on its' proper course, I will say this - iai shiai pushes the participant to deliver stronger and more correct technique than other traditional martial arts when they are put into a competitive arena. Nothing worse than seeing beautiful karate waza collapse into nonsensical light-sparring competitions where the karateka is too reluctant to deliver a strike lest he gets hit himself. Ewww.

    Now, where were we?
  2. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    I know the difference of koryu and gendai. However, how can the new era of Jiu-jitsu, remain in the category of koryu?

    I have to agree that some traditonal methods can be applied to the current era
  3. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    What does that have to do with the thread?

    We are in the Koryu Bujutsu forum discussing Koryu, not gendai arts or any other form of system that may have stemmed from them.

    We are discussing Koryu Bujutsu.

    Your question seems inane.

    Please tell us of your understanding of koryu because as it is each of your posts is sending this thread all over the shop rather than being on topic.

    Which methods and in what way?

    How about your previous mention of Bojutsu?
  4. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    I know the difference of koryu and gendai. However, how can the new era of Jiu-jitsu, remain in the category of koryu?

    I have to agree that some traditonal methods can be applied to the current era
  5. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    So you are either trying to troll or going with the "la la la I'm not listening" approach.

    You don't even seem to understand why your question is odd well it is either that or your command of English is so poor that you can't convey what you mean.

    Please attempt to answer the questions or don't post.

    This could be an interesting thread but unfortunately all that has happened so far is that it's been derailed by these type of stunts.
  6. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I have to agree.

    You can answer a question while stil remaining anonymous.
    You can also help the OP with your knowledge.
    You choose to do neither.

    Honestly it really is boring to read .
  7. John Timmons

    John Timmons Valued Member

    What about the likes of Takagi ryu which had indoor hand to hand combat as it focus or yagyu shingan ryu taijutsu that altered the waza for urban fighting. Medieval urban Japan was probably quite different from today but they must still have some practicality about them.
  8. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    I was talking about my own koryu practice, John, not adaptable koryu in general.
  9. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    Got a few minutes, so I'll throw out my thoughts on this (in an attempt to drag the thread back on track) ...

    No, none of the koryu that I have trained in try to deal specifically with modern situations. However, due to the nature of koryu training, what I have learned is completely applicable to any situation in today's world. The koryu (that I am familiar with) train mindset, body movement, and proper response, not specific 'techniques'. Therefore, the mindset and movements that I've learned through my koryu training apply with pretty anything I happen to be doing at the moment.

    Not sure how much sense that made, but it makes sense in my head. :)
  10. beer_belly

    beer_belly Valued Member

    Seems perfectly sensible - practicing a koryu that has spun off modern versions for over a century - SMR spawned Uchida Ryu tanjo in the 1890s, then police jo in the mid 20th century and post war ZNKR jodo - but the core koryu techniques are still applicable using a pool cue or a broom or any other stick like object - its only some of the specific sword engaging bits that have to be modified, not the base essence of the training.
  11. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    Greetings from Japan! :)

    The taijutsu/jujutsu/kumiuchi systems in a good number of koryu can be applied to more modern attacks rather easily. It's just adapting and altering vectors & angles. Most people these days do not strike the way they did back in the 16th century.

    Strikes to the head in the old days were depending on the jujutsu ryuha, either with the bottom of the fist or in the form of a straight backfist strike. You would have some punching techniques, but they were usually applied to soft targets of the body like the suigetsu, hichu, ikazuchi etc. We have to take into account the reasons for this; Most bushi were armed. If they punched to the face/head area the way most combatants do these days, there is a good chance of sustaining a fracture of the meta-carpals. They still wore weapons as a matter of course as a military caste in the feudal Japanese social structure. Damaging the weapon hand was a no-no and I dare say that in modern times, it is still a no-no.

    Tenjin Shinyo-ryu is an example of this, whenever there's a strike to the head/face area, it's either a hammer-fist strike, or an open hand strike. The kata employed raking fingers across the eyeballs, using shuto-uchi, and teisho (palm heel strikes) not only as a percussive tool, but to control the enemy's spinal column and create effective kuzushi for nage-waza. A lot of other koryu jujutsu ryuha do the same.

    Hope this helps.
  12. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    For my own practice, no.

    However, I have noticed things that would be easily adaptable to a situation I might find myself in, but don't train it as such. It's hard enough getting the waza right on its own without futzing about with "modern applications".

    That being said, I do train my European arts with somewhat of an eye to modern applications, since they lend themselves easily to such things. We have a police officer in our group who is quite fond of the medieval grappling and dagger work, FWIW.

    Best regards,

  13. Brixtonbodunwel

    Brixtonbodunwel Valued Member

    Training(which must be consistent and repetitious to produce the desired training result) for modern situations and altering the vectors and angles are two different things. I received details that one krav maga group ran a very successful seminar on fighting on a London bus. I intend to attend their next seminar on this vital but I feel neglected aspect of self defence.
    I therefore look forward to a koryu group running the same session so I can learn how to alter the vectors and angles of Koryu to the no12 bus that runs through Peckham (maybe drop off the bus and grab a Kebab in the same place that a former Labour Home Secretary got one of course I wont have a few Met bodyguards with me) but wont need it.
    Koryu is at one similar but completely different to the sealed knot (a civil war battlefield re enactment society). It’s all battlefield re enactment type stuff, including the dressing up. However one is a total physical,mental and life style commitment the other a pastime. The sealed knot calls it as it is but if some Koryu groups claim their training can prepare you for the London overground line that goes through Hackney at 11.00 at night I beg to differ. Japanese Koryu is fascinating and the practitioners are the most dedicated people I have met and their attention to detail is that of a diamond jeweller, the ability to watch movements and analysis them to what Japanese century they came from can only come from total emersion in the Koyru they study but in the next breath to claim that by altering a few things will give you edge in a violent 21 century confrontation I am not convinced .
    My possible ignorant observation of Koyru is about practicing and dedicated training in the past ways and their websites clearly state that. This is a very refreshing honesty rarely seen in martial arts advertising. Mr Delaney himself sets his stall out that you wont benefit from the training by just turning up and paying a pound but only by reading recommending books prior to even considering training, their by self selecting the potentially dedicated to a past timer looking for an unusual hobby. However a mere adaptation of method with no constant and persistent repetition of that adaption will not help you to sort out a group of drunken football supporters fighting it out in Kings Cross Underground and that is where the rub lyies.

  14. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Well that's certainly Koryu, consistent and repetitious. :D

    Generally speaking of course;)

    I don't think Steve is suggesting it is just a simple matter of "oh we'll alter the angle we work at" there's more behind it, part of it being a good solid knowledge of the system you train in.

    Not sure what your purpose is with the above but to be honest you're coming across as unnecessarily arsey but that might just be me.

    In fact a lot of your post comes across as being full of "back handed compliments". I'll apologise in advance if that's not your intention but it does come across that way.

    You can't "alter angles and vectors of koryu" as koryu isn't a single thing, it's an umbrella term used to help classify certain systems.

    I think you are a little misguided.

    Not all Koryu is "battlefield" stuff and it's not re-enactment.

    I don't think you'll find a group will per se. This thread is mainly about examining your own training and seeing if it can be made applicable to a modern situation, I feel it's more about the breaking down of the various aspects and training that we do and examining where it can apply.

    Some parts will not be relevant but some may well either contain useful skills or scenarios that you can use, this will depend of course on your chosen ryu-ha.

    It's certainly not a cut and dry issue.

    You have to remember that these are combative systems which have developed via actual confrontations, of course such confrontations happened a while back but what is studied is not stage acting or the re-enactment of some historical battle.

    How much experience with koryu have you had? I only ask so we can understand where you're coming from. No point in us telling you stuff you already know is there?

    It's not about altering a few techniques, it's about adjusting the logical and efficient skills you learn to the culture you find yourself in now.

    Pre-emptive strikes.
    Environmental awareness.
    Ambush and assasination.
    Close quarter fighting

    All of the above and more can be found in koryu, the cultural surroundings are what differs today for us but there are core elements that remain. Koryu do not teach set techniques to be used in a set way, not really anyway.

    They exist for the continuation of the system and these systems transmit ways of moving, thinking, responding etc that can and do apply today. If you take the time to study one you see a lot of commonalities with many principles associated with dealing with violent confrontation.

    Yes tweaking is involved but that goes for everything.

    This is where things get tricky.

    Koryu are indivual entities with some following certain outlooks that probably won't help but others may well encourage the student to break down their training and make it applicable, now this is different to claiming to be a self defence art and subtle difference perhaps but one that should be noted.

    It's not about switching things around in training a little, it's more about having a core set of combative principles and gross motor skills that are applicable across the board. To do this though you need a solid understanding of your ryu-ha and what you want to apply it to, this isn't something you get from just one or two classes but years of study.

    Funnily enough I was watching some clips of knife attacks not too long back and a number of the situations were very similar to those covered in certain aspects of my training. Yes the clothes may be different and some of the scenarios relevant only to feudal Japan but koryu in many ways were/are fluid things and not something that is ridigdly set in stone.

    We don't study koryu for self defence but you can, depending on the ryu-ha, adapt and apply your training for this need. Yes you are going to need to expand your training to accommodate things like HAOV and legal issues but again the same goes for a number of systems.

    Also keep in mind that in the past exponents of these systems often engaged in cross training or pressure testing and where encouraged to go and learn how to apply themselves. You might find that in some ryu-ha this attitude remains.

    The benefits of koryu are many but for the purpose of this discussion the main ones would be a set of simple and direct physical skills, stress testing and familiarity with bladed weapons, development of an awareness of distancing and timing and the exposure to working under threat.
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2012
  15. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    First, I've no intention of ever "sorting out" a bunch of drunks. Second, you don't understand what the koryu are about, or how and why they train, so your opinion is just your thoughts based on no knowledge at all. That's OK though, we really don't care much whether you know or like the koryu or not. Here's a very interesting bit by Dave Lowry that explains a bit about koryu to the unknowing ... So You Want to Join the Ryu?

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