Training for modern situations

Discussion in 'Koryu Bujutsu' started by John Timmons, Feb 26, 2012.

  1. John Timmons

    John Timmons Valued Member

    Do you train your ryu in a modern context for a situation that might arise in a modern setting?
  2. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Define "Modern".....
  3. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    It's not hard is it? You are deliberately trying to divert the thread for your own ends and love of word play. Quite honestly it is boring.

    By modern I would assume we are talking about nightclubs, crowded trains and buses and so on.
    I would suggest that unless you set up specific scenarios it is quite difficult within a class structure.
  4. John Timmons

    John Timmons Valued Member

    It could be worse he could have asked me to define post modern ha!

    A situation you might find yourself in today and all that entails ie getting out of a car etc.
  5. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I hear pub brawls a rather popular with some ryu-ha ;)
  6. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Just for the sake of clarity.

    Do you mean do we as individuals work on the application within a modern setting or does the ryu-ha cover such things?

    Of course either way it would have to be working within the framework, parameters etc of the ryu-ha
  7. John Timmons

    John Timmons Valued Member

    I was thinking individually but if its done within the ryuha that would be interesting to hear about.

    Apart from it being very quiet around here I'm also interested to hear from those who want to keep what they are learning "practical" (that probably requires a context) and how they go about that.
  8. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I think knowing why something is taught within your ryu-ha is essential because ultimately if you want it to have "practical" value today you then need to look at if the framework it's based on is relevant.

    Take close ranged atemi delivered from a position which accommodates the wearing of swords it just also happens to be handy, I've found, for striking from a Fence. Not to mention various open handed strikes which are good for not only keeping you hands intact but also degrees of force.

    Then you have certain take downs and ways of finishing an opponent which probably aren't very applicable to a modern self defence scenario but also the reverse might be that a ryu-ha allows certain freedom in the final part of a waza which would give you options and not create a pre-programmed response that may cause you to go beyond that which is reasonable.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2012
  9. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Not really.

    I have been to many training seminars who advertise "Modern Training" and upon attending, they did not have a “realistic modern approach"

    The definitive study of "modern training” can be a conundrum as this is the person who takes the context of the word, or its meaning, and apply it to their own ideals. Thus these ideals could not be modern if you apply the word “realistic” as part of the description of “modern”

    I can go to any martial art school and say they train “modern”…as they use electricity, modern gear, have defense against knives and guns, etc….

    But should we blend or misuse the term “modern” meaning “realistic”?
  10. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    You need to look at the forum you are posting in.

    I would hazard a guess that most of us training in a koryu understand what the OP is referring to, the context and how it may or may not relate to what we do.
  11. John Timmons

    John Timmons Valued Member

    But that way of thinking gives problems with the word "realistic". Are you realistically going to be in a sword fight.... if you practice iaido 4 days a week then your carrying a sword around 4 days a week so the chances increase compared to those that don't.

    A friend of mine works as a delivery man for a bakery. He caries a large pole with a hook on the end for pulling out bread boards. He recently got into an altercation with another motorist who went for him with a baseball bat and he used the pole to defend himself. Training with a large pole (bojutsu) against a club weapon would be unrealistic to most.

    Given the lack of discussion on this forum it would be interesting to hear from people regardless of how they interpret the words modern or realistic.
  12. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member


    As per my post #9, I was not making attempts to use semantics.

    The use of pre-modern methods in current or "modern" era, does this make these methods "modern"?

    I was merely trying to clear up a term that is so loosely used without perception.

    Sure, pre-modern method(s) can be applied to the current era. There are some "people" who do not think so.

    Instead, these "people" whom do not, will use a block or strike not knowingly, that is of pre-modern because in the ways of combat-defense, the human body cannot create anything beyond its scope of physicality.

    Although, there are many methods within forms (i.e. Bunkai) that many so called "modern people"^, per se' teachers-practitioners dismiss as useless (forms-katas). This is because they cannot grasp the "reality" of what can be used from a pre-modern method to a current era (what is deemed "modern")

    To add a "spin"; practicing Kendo may not be "modern", but "realistically", the methods can be applied to a commonly found cudgel within street refuge.
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2012
  13. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member


    This is where I was going per my first post to "define".

    Perhaps, I should have worded it as to "explain" rather than "define"
  14. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    So MartialMan how do you adapt your koryu training to meet any modern requirements you have?

    Oh btw Kendo is a sport it's not really supposed to have any crossover into self defence so your analogy is a bit off there. Yes attributes may be developed that have relevance but the same could be said of Rugby.

    What we're dealing with here is pre-Meiji combative systems and if those who practice them try and adapt them to any self defence requirements in today's world.

    This question brings with it a number of considerations about what koryu is, whether it is still koryu once you start tinkering with it and how you would adapt your training whilst still remaining true to the parameters of the ryu-ha.

    Let's try and discuss the issue at hand yes? As it is most of what you've contributed has consisted of a lot of rambling and added very little to the thread.
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2012
  15. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    No, I leave that to common sense and non-koryu waza...

    ...and kendo is not a sport. ;)
  16. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Somebody needs to tell those guys at the International Kendo Federation then.


    You know "sport is not a dirty word Blackadder, crevice is a dirty word. Leak is a positively disgusting word."
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2012
  17. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    In terms of a "sport" becoming adaptive, of course rugby or even baseball cannot be in the same analogy with Kendo.

    For example a good baseball player maybe able to swing a bat for home runs, but this is not a actual "martial skill" or practiced towards such.

    What we're dealing with here is pre-Meiji combative systems and if those who practice them try and adapt them to any self defence requirements in today's world

    If one had truly practiced Kendo, Bo Jutsu, etc., and the like pre-modern, are we to deny that these skills could not be applied in the current era?

    Calling a martial art a sport is like saying that none of the skill sets can never be applied in defense or other fighting ability.

    I guess MMA will not be up these expectations if people deemed this as a "sport"
  18. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    You're missing the point and in more ways than one.

    Please read up on, if you haven't already, what a koryu is and what it involves.

    Then you may be able to look at this thread from the same perspective that the rest of us are.

    I've already mentioned in that post you quoted that there would be some attributes that would crossover and certain things an individual could take form kendo but we are not discussing that.

    We are specifically discussing Koryu.

    My point about Kendo is that it is not supposed to directly have any combative value in the same way as many koryu, the problem we face with koryu is that they were developed for a number of different purposes over different time periods and within a different culture to what we face today.

    So the question revolves around extrapolating the fundamentals and principles within the ryu-ha and seeing where and how they might be applied today. If we take specific waza then which ones and why?

    Also if we should in fact do this, especially when there are plenty of other options, options far more readily suited to the task.

    In what way are they applicable?

    How far do you adapt them before they cease to be what they are?

    Do you even have a right to do this? Is another interesting question.

    Let's stick, no pun intended, with your mention of Bojutsu.

    What do you feel would be applicable to the OP's question there?

    Did you have any specific ryu-ha in mind when you mentioned Bojutsu?

    Little things like which ryu-ha a skill set is from tend to be rather relevant in this forum.

    BTW I'm assuming you don't actually study a Koryu, going on your posts and the fact you missed answering my question about how you adapt your training.

    What's your MA background MartialMan? It may help us understand your point of view a little more if we know what you've studied.
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2012
  19. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    I think they already know, as they only mention competitive kendo once:

    Kudos for the Blackadder reference though...
  20. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Should I stop putting iai shiai in the same category as competitive fan dancing then?

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