traditional

none taken it's just that when i mentioned my warm up routine done in my dojo a few of the MAPers mentioned that it was a quite strange routine since it makes you tired in the beginning just before practicing your techniques, that is why I'm asking you all now, how is it supposed to be done, so i'm not really asking just so i can boost my post, and sorry if i was making such an impression aaradia. and not 7 but 11, but hey that's life, that was also the reason i asked the question, to think that nearly 11 years of taekwondo was done wrong, how do you think i felt when you guys said my conditioning was done wrongly?

 

If you try to use maximum weight and train with maximum speed, you may hurt your elbow joint.

From the MA training point of view, you are the master and weight is your slave. You should always conquer your weight and never let your weight to conquer you. When you allow your weight to conquer you, you may take chance to have long term damage.

 

As traditional as it gets - some of the oldest methods known

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUgQ0q9sLmE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUgQ0q9sLmE[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ1h8ANVCOs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ1h8ANVCOs[/ame]

 

so it's more of the fault of the practitioner for pushing too hard on the training method. then how should determine what weight is suitable for them? basically something lighter than them? or something that requires a "bit" more effort?

 

This is why everybody will need a teacher. A teacher can share his personal experience with his students what amount of weight is proper.

If you try to do fast pull and fast release on weight pulley, 60 lb will be the proper weight. If you go beyond that, you may either have to work in slower speed, or you may take chance to injury your elbow joint.

 

I love the idea of that training tool, its' easy to see how training with that could directly cross over into your techniques and sparring.

I don't have the luxury of a tool like that, but I do have a basketball full of cement, a bar from a barbell and a lot of plates. I stick the bar in the basketball, pile up the weights on the end I'm gripping and twist, pull, push and wrestle with it like I'm wrestling with a person. Utterly exhausting mind, but absolutely worth the fuss.

EDIT: A bit like this:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrgYO-9d7OA"]Full Contact Twist - Part 1A - YouTube[/ame]

 

Generally speaking, reckless people practising recklessly will most likely cause damage to the body. It doesn't need to be TMA related, it can be absolutely anything. If anything, most of the older generation that practice martial arts I've met are in excellent health.

The problem with some TMA instructors is that they are very much like an acoustic guitar - sounds wonderful, but hollow on the inside. There's a reason that the term "sensei" in TJMA is used to denote a person with good experience and understanding rather than the word "teacher". Realistically you need someone who has enough experience they've learned from to help you come to your own understanding in turn.

Following on from that point, a lot of TMA instructors have no clue how or why certain bits of training equipment were used and like to argue that it is "absolutely not necessary to learning my MA properly". Maybe not, but there's a reason our forefathers going back hundreds of years used supplementary training as part of their practice. Because it works.

 

Just because it's old does not mean it is good, yes I really did say that.


I would of thought it fairly obvious that modern research and methods would be superior in many areas.

 

Absolutely.

But as a loose rule of thumb, a training method that has been around for as long as some training methods have (such as barbell training, sand bag training, striking practice against targets, etc) have probably survived the passage of time for a reason. Without at least understanding why you practice a certain training method or movement, it's easy to miss the purpose for doing it or why it has been used.

Largely agree.

But certainly for me it's not just about the physical movements itself. There's also a sense of tradition, history and mindset (as mentioned already) that goes with the practice too that is hard to put a value on. This goes without saying that a huge number of modern methods and equipment used really aren't all that different from a lot of the training methods used in days gone by.

 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5UCSalhci8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5UCSalhci8[/ame]

I can't afford that one either. It may cost $250 in US and easy to break (made of clay). I get one like this that I can put the right amount of water in it. I can use it to train my "wheeling step" at the same time.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOSM4fCElXc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOSM4fCElXc[/ame]

 

I'm sure by putting enough effort, we can find better modern tools to replace those ancient tools. It will take a group of people who understand

- MA, and
- modern science.

This ancient training tool "bag throwing" (16 lb - 23 lb maximum) can train your

- finger grip,
- sharp eye sight,
- wheeling footwork,
- horizontal throw (a door open move in Chinese wrestling)
- yield into the incoming force,
- whole body unification,
- fun,
- good for health,
- ...

I'll be interest to see if any modern training tool that can achieve similar goal like the ancient one.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fMldA3LY-4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fMldA3LY-4[/ame]

The most similar modern tool that I can find is this. It may achieve many similar skill except the "grip strength development". Also since there is not enough weight in it, it doesn't push your body hard enough.

 

hmm but when you think about it, the traditional martial arts equipment that were created had a concept behind it, so isn't it not impossible for modern science to help us to improve these designs?

 

Good example, BUT! The medicine ball, use to do similar excersize to the bag throw. As well as rotation throws in groups of 3 and abb slams. Now that being said, not sure how old Medicine balls are so they might be traditional:dunno:

 

There's a saying "there's nothing new under the sun". Nine times out of ten it holds a lot truer than people realize. Sledgehammer swings, rope exercises, tractor tyre flipping, barbell exercises, bulgarian sand bag exercises, clubbells, kettlebells, pad work, hanging/free standing bags, grip trainers, sprints pushing/pulling sledges...they're all examples of this in action.

But the medicine ball doesn't work on your pinch grip strength (and probably your crushing grip too) at the same time in the way those bags do. Also most forms of exercise I've seen with medicine balls do not work on your balance, co-ordination or push the body through such a large RoM at the same time, but this is more to do with the way people use them than anything else.

As rumour goes, the idea of the medicine ball seems to have first come from ancient Persia as a basic ball made of leather filled with sand. Modern versions are a bit more durable and a bit better designed, but that's really about it.

 

Of course, instead of hanging on a tree, pole, or street sign, ... if we can design a human body shape dummy that we can hang on it, the training will be more realistic. So far, such human body shape dummy that can carry 200 lb human body weight is not available on the market yet.

If the market is small and has no commercial value, the "training equipment evolution" will never happen.

 

just curious, what is the purpose of this awesome sounding training dummy you speak of ?

 

If you want to develop strong "head lock",



there isn't many modern training tools that can help you there. The ancient method is just to hang yourself on a smooth surface white pine tree trunk by using your own body weight to train. If you can't find such tree (last time I found those trees in Ohio), you can always use a standing pole or even street sign.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYeEUGJfMR0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYeEUGJfMR0[/ame]

It will be nice to design a human dummy that you can twist your leg on dummy's leg and apply "head lock" on dummy's neck. The upper body can be just like this but will need proper legs, and also be able to carry your body weight.

 

another question for this thread from your beloved Newbie MAPper , so to say you have two people; person A: builds his muscles through martial arts training, whereas person B:Builds specific muscles required in martial arts with exercise equipment but has never done martial arts before. My question is given the circumstances above, is there a difference in their built and if so, would you say that person B will be able to execute the technique easier if given guidance? this is just a case question i was wondering.