Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Mugen Zero, Mar 2, 2014.

  1. Mugen Zero

    Mugen Zero Infinite zero

    hey guys Mugen Zero here :D, does anyone know any other traditional training equipment used by the forefathers of our martial arts today, as far as i know, there's the makiwara which is something like a punching board, a gigantic iron u shaped tube which is use to practice closing hands, the wing chun wooden dummy to practice various techniques depending on the situation, and the long bag? which i found on youtube to train your grips. anyone can name another and it's functions?
  2. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Here is an excellent article written by Mitch.
  3. Mugen Zero

    Mugen Zero Infinite zero

    :topic: just to be sure when doing a martial art routine it's warmup first, then stretching, then conditioning, then strength? i saw this pattern on this website called black belt wiki, not promoting it just asking.
  4. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    A good dynamic warm up incorporates stretching, technique next and strength last.

    The reason strength is last is because you need to be strong enough during class to have enough control to be delivering good technique.
  5. Mugen Zero

    Mugen Zero Infinite zero

    so conditioning is something you achieve through the whole training? and the best warmup would be one that combines stretching into your workout. what if i mixed it up a bit like 1st exercise a type of warm up second exercise a type of stretching, does that still give the desired result as the warmup that incorporates stretching?
  6. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    Some definition of "traditional" as different cultures with "traditional MA" used differing equipment that was often very similar. Look at Kushti and those massive clubs they used to practice with, then look as the chi ishi that the Okinawan karateka would often use (the one Mitch made) for example. There's also two handed variations of the same thing.

    But there was also old school barbells, jars of sand/fine gravel, a kind of striking post for the arms that was very common, iron sandals/clogs, wrist rollers, stone padlocks for the hands, kongoken (big metal hoop used by hawaiian wrestlers IIRC, introduced by Chojun Miyagi into his style of karate), heavy bags filled with sand, bundles of bamboo...and those are off the top of my head from different Okinawan karate practices.

    But yeah, some clarification might be useful.
  7. Mugen Zero

    Mugen Zero Infinite zero

    ahh forgive me,i was going for traditional generally :D, in terms of martial arts and training, it's just that i couldn't come up with a right title for combination of anything traditional.
  8. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

  9. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member




  10. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    some kung fu styles use long poles to develop whole body power (they're long flexible poles that bnd if shaken with enough force). one of the kung fu quest episodes showed them, but i don't rememb which it was (they were either doing xing yi or xinyiliuhequan, so look for the xing yi episode on youtube.
  11. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Many traditional CMA training equipments can be seen in this clip.

    Last edited: Mar 2, 2014
  12. Mugen Zero

    Mugen Zero Infinite zero

    ahh and also pillars can be use for CMA training right? just normal pillars i mean, i remembered from a movie whereby the beginning of the movie was feautering a chinese martial artist using five pillars in a formation of four pillars surrounding one pillar in the middle, supposedly this was for training amongst multiple enemies. feel free to correct me though for my perception could be wrong.
  13. Mugen Zero

    Mugen Zero Infinite zero

    I was just wondering, you have two ways to train in martial arts the traditional way, and the modern way, is there a disadvantage to using the traditional method of conditioning your body compared to the modern way? and please note i'm not trying to ignite a flame war between modern and traditional. so no go to people who disrespect other people's way of training.
  14. Mugen Zero

    Mugen Zero Infinite zero

    [ame=""]Martial Arts Warming Exercises - YouTube[/ame]
    was this what you meant by dynamic warm up cause if so it goes to my routine, trying to create a routine atm but still doing regular exercises don't worry :D
    but it looks a lot more like stretching though to me. if it isn't, well i guess that's life.
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2014
  15. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    This subject has been discussed many times in the past. here I just do some cut and paste. The following are ancient CMA training equipment:

    - leather belt for cracking.
    - brick for finger strength.
    - stone lock for swinging.
    - square bag for throwing.
    - long bag for arm strength.
    - single head for leg.
    - double heads for arm and body.
    - weight puller for pulling.
    - bowling ball for foot scoop.
    - long cane bundle for technique training.
    - short cane bundle for fingers grabbing.
    - short wooden stick for fingers grabbing.
    - long wooden stick for technique training.
    - weight on the loop for vibration.
    - weight on the end of rope for wrist strength.
    - big brick for body function.
    - Gon for twisting.
    - water jar for finger strength.
    - tree (or pole) for hanging, shin biting, sticky, ...
    - ...
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2014
  16. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    There are different approaches between the modern way and traditional way.

    By using the

    - modern way, you go to gym and make yourself strong. When you are in your gym, your mind may not be in your MA development.
    - traditional way, first you have to decide what skill that you want to "develop" and "enhance". You then pick up the right equipment for it. You have to map it backward.

    For example, the skill "扣(Kou) - Knee seize" requires 4 different kind of strengths. Which will need 4 different equipment to develop it from.

    1. grip strength - throwing bag,
    2. linear shaking - weight pulley.
    3. forward pushing - long cane bundle,
    4. backward pulling - single head, long cane bundle.


    So far I still have not found any modern equipment that can help me to develop "push with one hand and pull with another hand at the same time" yet.

    Another example,

    If you want to develop and enhance your "scoop kick" technique, you will dig a hole in the ground, put a bowling ball in that hole. Everyday you just use your "inner foot edge" to "scoop" that bowling ball out of that hole. Can you go to the modern gym to train something like this? I haven't figured it out yet.

    Last edited: Mar 2, 2014
  17. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    Not particularly. The main advantage, for me, is the mind set in which you train. When you set yourself to practice some hojo undo (supplementary training), it is specifically linked to the movements you should be aiming to use in your training. There's a particular sensation to the mind set that is hard to describe as well, but I've found that the mind set is very focused on my MA too, so I tend to treat it with the same level of seriousness I practice my kata with, for example. If I'm doing laps of the pool, on the other hand, I don't have the same mind set. It's just an exercise that sure will make me fitter and probably a little stronger and more supple, but its' just a form of exercise that bears little direct relevance to my kickboxing.

    The main downside I have come to find with TMA training methods is actually a lack of informed individuals and good information more than anything else.

    Take the makiwara, for example. I know an instructor who openly advocates that makiwara is there for "cracking the bones of the knuckles and making them strong". To that extent, his interpretation of a portable makiwara is to shove a few planks of wood wrapped in newspaper up the front of a kick shield and get people to punch it as hard as they can. Which is an excellent way of setting yourself up to suffer from arthritis in your later years. :bang:

    Makiwara is excellent for learning to generate good power, focus, accuracy, understanding the physical mechanics of using your whole body to strike as well and even developing the strength of a lot of the muscles you use when you strike and understanding the purpose of rotating your fist with the tsuki (karate punch). Any physiological effects of developing stronger knuckles and reducing any pain sensation from hitting a target is a field that is highly debated within MA circles and should (IMO) always be the last thing to think about when using makiwara. And it is always better for makiwara to be a bit too soft and a bit too flexible than be a bit too hard and a bit too stiff, but unless someone actually takes the time to study the use of makiwara properly they may not know this.

    The only blessing of that for his students IMO is that the instructor is lazy and inconsistent enough that this does not become a part of their regular practice and is almost never used (maybe a couple of times a year?).

    I'm very fond of older school training methods personally, there's a hell of a lot you can learn from older training methods. There's also a hell of a lot of discussions that could be had over the use of modern training equipment too.
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2014
  18. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    No offense, but seriously?

    You aren't a beginner MAist right? You are a black belt TKD student having studied for 7 years or so?

    Did you really go that many years in a MA school without them covering basic ideas of working out, stretching conditioning etc? Or you really have no idea how much conditioning you get out of your workout after 7 years training?

    Again I mean no offense, but sometimes Mugen, I really wonder if you just post stuff you know to boost your post count. If not that, I really wonder why on earth some very basic things were not covered in your previous years of training. I try very hard not to criticize other schools. But how can you not know these absolute basics after that many years of training?

    Sorry to sound harsh............
  19. Mugen Zero

    Mugen Zero Infinite zero

    as i thought, so what about some claims that TMA training causes long term damage to the body then? is it because of using the wrong methods when using this Training methods?
  20. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I'm happy to see that you feel the same way as I do. When I twist my Gon, my mind is thinking about to grab both of my opponent's arms and twist him all the way down to the ground.


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