Traditional vs not

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Artikon, Dec 28, 2002.

  1. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    My opinion.

    Traditional TKD??? Read General Choi's Encyclopedia first.

    Traditional Korean MA?? Read a History book first. Or alternatively wait for the Discovery channel program on TKD to come back on. It had a good 30mins on Traditional Korean MA from Taekyon to forms of stick fighting.
  2. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    Robert I think you've had the best definition so far.

    I think far to often people assume that tradition whether it be martial arts or religion, or anything else, is that tradition is static. I disagree and say tradition is very dynamic. The proof is simply in the evolution of thinking and the way humans have evolved. We rarely do anything the same as our predecessors did. Why? They made mistakes and we learned from them, thus new traditions were born until mistakes or problems were discovered in those.

    Question for Tosh now . . . why do you attest the Gen. encyclopedia as relating traditional TKD?

    I know devils advocate :rolleyes:

  3. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    Except Dr. Un Yung Kim is on the IOC commission board. I still think the WTF plays a big part of the olympics.
  4. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    Because it will tells you when the word TKD was invented. Notice I'm not saying who invented it!!! Don't take me for someone who dumbly follows propaganda.

    The point I'm making is Traditional TKD??? Hmm TKD is only half a century old in its current incarnation. The tools from which it was built?? Now we are talking about traditional Korean MA like:

    Taek Kyon
    Soo bak do (alias Subak)
    Bang Soo Do
    Kong Soo Do (Way of the empty hand)
    Kwon Bop
    Tae Soo Do (Way of the foot and hand)
    Tang Soo Do (Way of the Chineese hand)

    Of which they tried to unify under one banner - namely TKD
  5. HKD

    HKD New Member

    you think wrong the USTU has taken it over totaly
  6. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how


    Then what is the role of the WTF? Since when did the IOC deal with national bodies instead of their international counterparts? Why am I not a member of the USTU then? Is not the USTU still a member of the WTF? When did the USTU take over this initiative?
  7. TkdWarrior

    TkdWarrior Valued Member

    Tosh i combining diff arts under one name doesn't make it traditional...
    see robert's or my thoughts(both same) about tradition as being passed down as it is...
  8. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    The point I'm making is TKD was only invented as an art 50+ years ago. Therefore saying " Traditional " in this sense means what will be passed down like Robert says from the original blueprint of TKD 50+ years ago. This is traditional TKD.

    Now, traditional Korean Martial arts, from which TKD is based, have been practised for thousands of years more.

    In short Traditional TKD = General Choi et al
    Traditional Korean Martial Arts = List I gave above (not exhaustive)

    To talk about traditional TKD you have to qoute the General's material. I'm not just saying this because I'm ITF it's just a historical fact.
  9. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    Tosh I'm gonna have to disagree with this.

    I'll concede to the fact that Gen Choi has done a ton for TKD, and for the ITF in specific, but for me this is not traditional TKD since I have never been taught the ITF way/system/tuls/etc . . . For you it will most definetly be tradition for you but I can't claim it is for myself hence some of my disagreement.

    The rest of my diagreement comes with your historical fact. I truly don't believe the historical fact for the simple point that TKD was around before the General's materials. But before I go into further detail, and possibly stick my foot in my mouth :D , quick question for you Tosh, when was the Gen's encyclopedia copyright/printed for the first time?

  10. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    No no no you misunderstood. Yes The encyclopedia was published in 1985. General Chois first text about TKD was 1959. So okay, you could argue that the final product is not like that which was around in the 50's yes.

    What I was pointing out was the name TKD was invented around the time of the 50's. What TKD was then and what is is now has "developed" which was the original principle behind TKD, that is was to be a developing martial art. That's why the general wrote the texts so that the moves became the most efficient, powerful techniques we could muster.

    In this sense IMHO if you are practising "traditional" TKD (i.e. from what you are describing is the TKD as it was first formed circa 1955) you are only limiting yourself.

    But since it was formed for the intention of being a developing martial art then to say " I am performing traditionl TKD as it was laid out in 1955" is a contradiction.

    I imagine if someone said they practiced JKD as laid out by Bruce Lee a number of JKD exponents would attest this was entirely against the original principle.

    I agree with ROBERT'S statement that tradition is following something that is passed down.

    But IMO TKD tradition was to constantaly improve they manner in which we do TKD. For me the encyclopedia shows 99% of the correct "pictures" .However, pictures of techinques and how to perform them are totally different. Because

    Just a generall question for everybody since we're tuned in.

    How many clubs practice Sine wave and hip twist??

    P.s. The main idea of my posts was to eradicate the idea that "tradition" means something very old. Just because you say traditional TKD it does not mean 2000 years ago like Labatt mentioned.
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2003
  11. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    Okay, agreed

    TKD for as I see it is a developing and dynamic art, whichever system you partake in.

    I can't comment on the ITF but what I've seen in the years I've been training under KKW is an evolution of thought and of techniques. Yes there are those people who create and develop soley for sport, but there's nothing wrong with that as I see it. It still progresses the art as people are learning how to work with their body comfortably and efficiently, which I see as the basis of TKD. If joints are clicking and it's an unhappy pain it's probably wrong :D

    About your question on sine wave and hip twist. I don't understand what sine wave is, could you explain it please . . and for hip twist, for my understanding yes I practise hip twist as I see it as a natural movement for power and speed development.

  12. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    Sine-Wave= Movements are carried out in this sort of motion.

    / \
    \ _ /
  13. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    Sorry Tosh could you elaborate. Not sure I understand your diagram . . . . or I'm really tired . . . . . It's probably tired :rolleyes:
  14. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    Sorry came out wrong

    Here we go
  15. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    So what is the purpose of this type of movement? What sort of techniques are down with this motion?

  16. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    Nearly all movements use sine-wave motion

    The basic principal is the storage of potential energy on the down and up stroke then a downwards trajectory on impact of the target to increase power.

    Basically getting technique higher than the target to allow gravity to help the strike.
  17. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    Okay then sine wave must have no effect on say rising techniques, say uppercuts, rising kicks, high blocks, etc . . .

    Right now, without experimenting with it keep in mind, is that the power potential of the sine wave isn't great enough to really warrent, unless the technique is specifically a downward motion like an axe kick, or low block, down punch/strike. Anything moving in that direction. I say this because I think (keep in mind no measuring has been done so this is a guesstimate) giving potential accleration of the technique you would surpass the pull that gravity has for that short distance. For a much longer distance I could see the sine wave helping in the fact that eventually a persons acceleration would slow down and gravitiy would pull. Now keep in mind I'm not a physicist, perhaps if CKDstudent is reading this thread he may want to offer some input.

    I think in theory the principle is sounds, but I don't see the practicality behind it. Seems like extra motion to me, which doesn't seem to efficient. Course I could be visualizing it wrong. I'm guessing it's a pretty subtle movement like the hip twist. Am I right so far?

    I've heard that sine wave has only just been begun being pushed by the powers that be in the ITF. How was sine wave developed, was it Gen Choi's idea, or something that's developed through the years? Have you seen an improvement in the power aspect of techniques?
  18. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    Just realised my explanation was crappy. Have slapped my wrists and pointed to a far more reliable explanation.

    Of particular interest to CKD fans will be the moving in this manner, as opposed to the old saw tooth and Karate method cuts strain on the lower back :).

    By Kararte my sweeping generalisation is apologised for. I mean trying to keep the head on a horizontal plain.

    Hope that helps. I personally feel the difference in techniques but for some of them it can be a bugger to do. The emphasis on generating maximum power.

    Also, I 've learned hip twist and sine wave since.. 1996 when I started TKD.
  19. TkdWarrior

    TkdWarrior Valued Member

    ok Tosh ur link doesn't work for me...

    How was sine wave developed, was it Gen Choi's idea, or something that's developed through the years? Have you seen an improvement in the power aspect of techniques?
    it's basically Gen Choi's idea, how it developed ? who knows'
    but from wat i understand it works as a basic traditional prinicple of CMA(power comes from legs, controlled by waist n out by extrimeties)
    Now the Sine wave basically follow this process where power is generated within movements, letting the body sink for a while, then controlling by waist out by extremtities(punch,elbow etc)

    ok i understood this from learning Tai chi before that wat i knew about Sine wave is that it generates strength, rooting n balance.
    hope this helps...
  20. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    Yeah I've heard this was adopted form the Chinese MA. Can any of the practitioners throw any more light on this??

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