Traditional v Modern

Discussion in 'Ju Jitsu' started by smithter, Dec 5, 2012.

  1. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    Absolutely. IMO it says a lot about him.
     
  2. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    Fighting for sweeties? Sounds like a good incentive
     
  3. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Sorry if it sounded patronising, by conduct I meant how open minded you've been and how willing you have been to discuss things.

    We don't get enough of that on here.
     
  4. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    No following our PM messages (that ofc the others here haven't seen) I took it sincerely =] :bow:
     
  5. oneman

    oneman Valued Member

    For you Ian,

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18EjX7Wbt7A"]Jikishin JuJitsu Weapons Kata - Bo - YouTube[/ame]

    I'll see if I upload the other weapons at some point.

    As for training, I don't think anybody is suggesting that we carry around a bo, tonfa, nunchuku for self-protection (though we do some member who walk to training and thus have to carry the weapons in the street), but using the weapons as an extension of the body tends to focus the mind on stance, balance and generally think about how a weapon can be used effectively.

    BTW, it’s not on the syllabus but many clubs have courses in ‘modern’ weapons training featuring knifes, box cutters, baseball bats, pool cues, screwdrivers and items you are more likely to encounter.
     
  6. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Thank you oneman.
     
  7. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Those weapons should be safely inside a case and not easily accessible so it's a little irrelevant to be honest.

    I know you guys were not suggesting they were done for self defence, any comments about that centred around Evva's thoughts on lineage.


    All weapon work is essentially an extension of yourself it's just that faults tend to get magnified when using a weapon.

    As for thinking about how a weapon can be used well to be honest it shouldn't come down to that should it? Unless I have misunderstood you?

    There should be a core set of teachings and drills that teach the student how to use it. Maai, hyoshi and choshi and other concepts should be developed via training along with where to target, how to generate power correctly, work under pressure and a long list of other things. Exploration of all of those fundamental aspects should only come latter, IMO, once they have been ingrained in your bones.

    If the weapons are just being used as drills to develop proprioception and kinesthesia then that is a little different. I think that may be where some confusion has developed on here, are the weapons taught as weapons or are they just tools to develop one's empty hand skills and the student's understanding of their body?

    Sounds good. Do you do scenario training and anything developed around habitual acts of violence?

    Thanks guys for that chat. :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2012
  8. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Watching this clip I have some questions:

    1. Is this bojutsu related to the stuff Fumio Demura teaches, some other origin, or is it just kata created by "Jikishin Jujitsu"?

    2. Are they just stepping through the sequence to memorise the steps or are they actually practising the kata? (Just seems very half-hearted.)

    3. With a long weapon like a bo, why are they so close throughout?
     
  9. oneman

    oneman Valued Member

    I guess it comes back to what you said in that don't learn blindly, learn why certain stances are used, how the weapon is held and how it moves. Once you understand the reasons why then you can become more effective.

    For example with katana, don't use a chopping motion, draw along the length of the weapon and slice. With bo, think about hand position and where you are holding the weapon to extend range.

    I would hope both. But I think the reality is these days there is the temptation to teach too much too soon. Now a days people want to learn striking and throws and grappling and ground fighting and katas and weapons and street defence, etc, etc. I expect most people on here work a job and probably have family and just can't put 8 hours a day training in MA. That is on top the techniques required for grading (173 for shodan). Does learning 173 make you better at street defence ? Maybe yes, maybe no.

    So I would suggest pick a club that focuses on what you want to get out of learning and it may mean going to more then one club which is sometimes a no-no.

    At the moment, weapons is a small part of my clubs focus. As Ian mention we have a have to learn kata in 5 weapons for shodan to a basic level. Higher dan would expect higher proficiency, however most of the weapons are not done in pairs. If you want to do that, then you practice and enter pairs weapons demo at competition but it’s a necessary requirement of grading. Again that who be non-sparring. If you want to spar with weapons then you would need to step outside of jikishin sphere.

    Big problem is of course time, in our club we have 2 to 3 hours of weapons kobudo once a quarter. Is that enough to learn, of course not so for those interested it’s down to training yourself. At the other club where I training ground fighting they do 15 minutes of weapons every class but that means they don’t have time for stand up sparring which is something what I do every lesson in my club.
     
  10. oneman

    oneman Valued Member

    Don't know but my guess is that jikishin kata though I would think the basics are universal across different styles (could be wrong about that).

    Personally I would say they are going through the steps. I believe the video is a revision video not one that might be presented at competition where I would expect more spirit. At the Jikishin competitions I have been to the standard has been very high, much higher then the video.

    Not having spoken to Sensei Terry Parker who is one of the founders of jikishon and one of the instructors in the video I can't comment any further.

    As I mentioned, one of the things that I am taught is how to effectivily extend your range and use the bo to maximum effect. As for the video, again I can't comment.
     
  11. oneman

    oneman Valued Member

    Forgot to add, this is from Jikishin website,

     
  12. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    The linked Bo video is from the BJJA weapon DVD, it is a revision style DVD so all of the Kata are done slowly, as my fellow Jikishin student pointed out, in kata competitions the standard is a lot higher, as are demonstrations from the Sensei at kobudo days.

    While I have done research into the jujitsu lineage I've found nothing on the weapons side of things, but I remember that Sensei Ricky Izod (6th dan - Jikishin technical committee) mentioned working on the history of our kobudo. When I next see him (possibly the next kobudo session) I shall try to remember to enquire.

    The distance for the linked kata starts at one Bo length apart but sometimes gets further as students get more proficient at using the full range of the weapon.
     
  13. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Which traditional weapons does that refer to?

    What is meant by striking pose and stance? That might seem odd for me to ask but I have something in mind other than Vogue by Madonna that is? :D

    What muscle memory does it build exactly?

    Finally, sorry for all the questions, do you have the kanji your org uses for Jikishin?
     
  14. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kceOkMn0MRw&sns=em"]Yagyu Shingan-ryu Taijutsu [Bojutsu] - YouTube[/ame]


    2:38 for some sexy polearm action :D

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPw0k6qYSF4&sns=em"]Katori Shinto Ryu on BBC (4/4) - YouTube[/ame]


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBXTnJrbzZs&sns=em"]Araki-ryu Kempo - YouTube[/ame]
     
  15. oneman

    oneman Valued Member

     
  16. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    To add to what oneman said, I don't recall seeing a Jikishin kanji, the association badge just used the 柔術kanji...

    For shodan students must learn the first kata for, katana (or bokken), sai, tonfa, nunchuku and Bo (which is the walking paired kata)

    Nidan uses the same kata learnt but adds a naginata and Kama kata iirc, after that additional kata are learnt for the first 5 weapons and eventually add the bokken and Jo pair work we discussed in PM.

    Godan grading requires level 1 kobudo grading which is the highest we go.
     
  17. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    LOL no wonder you couldn't be arsed to go through history/lineage questions again Ian haha

    Thanks for linking this thread. I was just curious to see how much WJJF influence there was in your clubs/orgs syllabus. This thread answered that! Cheers :p
     
  18. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    hehe yeh, sorry if I came off a bit tart, it seems at least once a week I get asked about it all lol - perhaps I should link this thread into a forum signature...

    Our (Jikishin) Syllabus is based off both the WJJF and BJJA Syllubi (off the top of my head and without re-reading this thread I can't remember which came first - but they're both similar iirc) But as mentioned in the other thread It has been noticed watching some older WJJF/BJJA videos that some techniques have changed, largely the ones that Terry Parker Sensei could not 'correctly' perform after his neck operation, so he adjusted them to work for him - as would be expected from any high ranking sensei - but it would seem some of these techniques were then considered the correct way of doing things - so now they are being looked at to see which ways actually are the most effective (at least thats how my understanding of it all goes)

    If you've got any further questions I'll happily try and answer them for you =)
     

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