Traditional Punch and Boxing Punch

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Alexander, Jan 20, 2005.

  1. Haduken

    Haduken Valued Member

    i agree with slipthejab - the only thimes i have seen punching emphasised on the bottom 3 knuckles is wing chun - or perhaps on a boxing hook with a horizontal fist (personally i prefer an verticle fist for this reason, on hooks)
  2. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    I'm a bit puzzled by the "wrist slightly bent" in karate comment. Unless it refers to the fact that, when they start, most people allign the lower plain of their arm when punching resulting in a punch like picture 1 (below) - which usually leads to a few crushed knuckles and sprained wrists until they realise that you're supposed to allign the upper plain, to get a punch like pic 2. To begin with though, pic2 feels a bit like your wrist is bent as it's more "comfortable" to hold your hand in position 1.

    Attached Files:

  3. Emperor Cesar

    Emperor Cesar New Member

    The bottom 3 knuckles are safer than the top 2. Sure, the pinky knuckle is small, but your landing your blow across 3 knuckles at once, instead of two. It spreads out the impact better, plus you dont have to bend your wrist in any way to land all 3 easily.

    What i mean by bent wrist, hold your arm out with a slight bend in the elbow, palm facing down. See how the pinky, middle and ring knuckles are pointed straight foward? now bend your wrist slightly to the direction of your pinky finger until your index and ring finger are pointing foward. This is the "karate" way of punching.
  4. Ecks

    Ecks New Member

    In all honesty, when you're in the ring, no one really cares which knuckles you hit with. As long as you hit them. I tend to hit with the big two on my jab, but on my follow up cross, it's almost always the three knuckles. Left hook is usually bottom three.

    It's all nice and dandy to say which knuckles to hit with and discuss the theory, but you're not thinking about that at all in a fight - and if you are thinking about that, maybe you should seriously reassess your plan of action.
  5. Haduken

    Haduken Valued Member

    this is partly true Ecks - but at the same time - the better you can train yourself to hit with the correct knuckles/fist - arm alignment, the better your punch will be - you will be structurally more aligned, thus achieving more power, and will be less likely to break something - emporor cesar - you are talking out of your **** (respectfully)
  6. Tommy-2guns...

    Tommy-2guns... southpaw glassjaw

    i do neither, i train in boxing and muay thai but id never use their hand techniques in a fight.

    palm heel's,slaps,chops and hammerfists all the way, much safer and in my opinion more powerful than the standard straight punch.

    out of boxing and karate, i cant really say, boxers get more practice with their punches so they are likely to be more confident and follow through, but their are many many karateka who are devestating with their fists.

    do what drops your opponent the quickest.

    personally i see the boxing jab/cross verry verry risky to hand wearing anything under 8 oz gloves, id rather keep my hands safe, strike and still have them ready to grapple.
  7. TigerDude

    TigerDude Valued Member

    Here's what I've learned from the thread.

    1. People who have been taught that one way is better think that it is.

    2. Boxers don't care as much because they wear gloves.

    3. Lots of arguments about body mechanics can be made for all methods.

    What I know is that when I make a fist, my wrist is straight & the back of my hand lines up with the flat part of my forearm. I am unable to make one any opther way (pic 1 would be very uncomforatble for me). Also, my wrist will not bend enough to make the bottom 3 knuckles line up with a straight arm motion. Straight ahead for me is the 1st 2 knuckles, regardless of whether it's "right" or not.
  8. Emperor Cesar

    Emperor Cesar New Member

    Good argument. You have none. Idiot.
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Well if we are talking about punching with power, I think everyone in the thread has some good considerations.

    1. Firstly, how to generate power

    2. Secondly, how to hit the target with accuracy (does no good if you have no accuracy or you are telegraphing everything so people just get out of the way).

    3. Thirdly, how to transfer that power into the target. This has to do with pounds per square inch (the smaller the striking surface, the more pounds per square inch = the more penetration) as well as the relative densities between your fist and what it impacts with, and also how vital and vulnerable is the target you are hitting.

    4. Fourthly, how to protect yourself while doing this so that you aren't wide open to counter attack

    5. And finally, how to do this safely, not breaking your hand or wrist, etc.


    Now with all considered above, let's just talk about principles for a moment. One very important principle has to do with mass and acceleration. Karate punching technique has been described by some to be like a bullet. Bullets travel at very high velocities, thus one of the primary goals of karate technique is generating good acceleration.

    Now not the fault of anyone in particular, but I think many along the years "forgot" how to generate good mass with punches, instead concentrating on the acceleration. Point sparring certainly rewards good technique that accelerates, but penalizes excess force.

    Let's talk about mass, how does one effectively increase the amount of mass behind a punch? Matters not if it is a boxing punch or a karate punch...

    To get mass you need to get your legs and hips behind a punch. This means when you punch you need to punch from the ground up.

    Pop quiz time: given boxing rules (so no hammerfists or other strikes being legal), if you are in the ring and your opponent crouches down what punches should you be using to generate power?

    Well, I will say that I've seen a lot of people punching slightly down in that same situation. I will say that punching slightly downward isn't going to get much mass behind that punch, thus it isn't going to be very powerful. A good boxer is going to rock you with something coming up like an uppercut or hook.

    Note: Do not punch slightly down if you want to generate power, punch straight or slighly upwards. The idea being punching from the ground up.

    Now being martial artists we can use hammerfists, elbows, kicks and knees, and etc., so there are other options too. I'm only talking about punches.

    My point is, start at the basics, I don't care about body alignment or fist configurations, first things first, how do you get your weight behind that power punch. If you don't know how to do this and you don't practice using your power punches against a moving target, you can have the best form in the world, but your power will be limited.

    Last edited: Aug 22, 2006
  10. elektro

    elektro Valued Member

    Those are some pretty interesting points.
  11. goju-aiki

    goju-aiki New Member

    Just a secondary thought. Chuck Liddell was trained in karate when he was young before going into kick boxing. Wonder if his looping right hand was a variration of any technique. His straight punches are also devastating. I personally dun really think that there's too much difference in the 2. When I train to box and when I do kumite, my straight punches dun really differ that much.. maybe i am doing it wrong lol.
  12. Pete Ticali

    Pete Ticali Valued Member

    karate punches are weak?

    I can't help but wonder how you came to that realization. Don't mean to be impolite, but shame on your teacher!!!!

    Lets begin at the beginning. As a general principle upper body techniques derive their power from your lower body. Yes that is what he said....... Any punch that is merely using arm strength is medioca at best

    Classic boxers generally use their hip(s) when punching. They move their "center of gravity" forward to generate maximim "torque" by "lifting their back hip "into" the strike.

    Classic Karata do the same but opposite....... We also move our "center of Gravity" forward; but we do it by dropping it with the front leg. Make sure not to confuse that "verticle stance" stuff. Verical stance has little to do with what I'm now referring to. You can be perfectly verticle while dropping your center. Yes leaning forward, or the opposing mistake on keeping weight back can certainly diminish the energy in a punch, but that is a seperate issue to moving your center (regardless if it is forward from the back, or forward from the front.

    As an example: Think about a simple zen kutsu dachi stance (forward leaning stance). You might step backwards with your right leg, but when you do, your eyes have a full view of your left foot. the proper stance requires you bend you left knee until your toes are no longer visable. if you were to apply that simple concept in your strikes, they would become extremely more powerful

    Many modern electic styles, as well as many instructors have yet to understand this "center of gravity" issue. it is how I can successfully "punch" you using the muscles of my entire body. Most modern training lacks knowledge or even discussion in this area. I even utilize a slight "pivot" conterclockwise with my front foot (while dropping my center) so as to direct energy forward (much like a car's "universal" which converts engine rotation into axel rotation).

    I do not think there ia any real value in attempting to compare the boxer vs. the Karataka in this regard. That is because I already know the answer. Since some might be interested,I will share it with you.

    When a boxer meets a karataka, the best trained will win.
    Hopefully this concept will help some train.

    My best

    Pete Ticali
  13. kyokutsuki

    kyokutsuki Valued Member

  14. kyokutsuki

    kyokutsuki Valued Member

    Nope a front hand punch is Oi tsuki or Mae tsuki, jun tsuki is a thrust punch
  15. kyokutsuki

    kyokutsuki Valued Member

    I dunno about using a gyaku tsuki with a kiai but when the kyokushin fighters won K-1 they always kiai'd when striking
  16. kyokutsuki

    kyokutsuki Valued Member

    KARATE-KA DONT PULL THERE PUNCHES WHEN BREAKING, when it comes to breaking objects with the body the best and only the best are karateka FULL STOP, and if a karateka punches its a karate punch
  17. Hiroji

    Hiroji laugh often, love much

    I may be totally wrong here, so flame me at will.

    But the whole system of karate was set up and based on self-defence.

    Boxing on the other hand has been developed over hundereds of years in the ring as a sport.

    They are both effective for what purpose they are supposed to serve, if trained right.

    Its totally stupid to compare.

    Its comparing apples to oranges. Its stupid. Its childish. Time to grow up. ;)
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2006
  18. kyokutsuki

    kyokutsuki Valued Member

    YES i totally agree, some people are dimwits, i do kyokushinkai karate and when we do kihon and kata we use the punh where the arm is chamberd at the armpit but when doing Knockdown Kumite we punch properly
    Once a boy who did shotokan started a fight with me is school,

    i said ok then fight me if you wish and the kid slid back into zenkutsu datchi and stuck his one arm out and the other chamberd at his waist and i just laughed, casually walked up to him (though i was ready just in case) and when i was just in range i Ashi brai'd him ( sweep ) and then sat on his back untill a teacher come to break it up,
    i didn't lay a finger on him because im a nice person and i don't like hurting people, though it's karate ignorant people like that who give karate a bad name, IM NOT BOASTING ON HOW I TOOK OUT A PERSON SO EASILY BUT MEARLY TRYING TO MAKE A POINT ON HOW INEFFECTIVE SPORT KARATE AND IGNORANT PEOPLE ARE,
  19. kyokutsuki

    kyokutsuki Valued Member

  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Ignorant maybe, but Sport Karate is no more invalid than Kyokushin. In fact you can consider Kyokushin a sport as much as any other Karate style.

    I remember an article in MAI a few years ago by a Kyokushin BB who took a team to a KSBO event and they were shocked when they all got sent home with their balls in a sling. They just misjudged their opponents in the same way that the Shotokan lad misjudged you. Styles are not superior per se - people are.

    Pragmatically speaking both have a use and an application despite claims of superiority from both sides. In a "match fight" I would put my money on the boxer any day of the week.

    In a non-arranged conflict (or dare I say "streetfight") you are unlikely to square up when the first sign of aggression is shown. Where will your hands be most likely to be found? Somewhere around the waist probably! And who practices punching from here....

    Peter Consterdine has shown how effective (and painful) the "traditional style" punch can be. If you can , get a hold of his "Powerpunch" video - it is money well spent. His "partner in crime", Geoff Thompson, seems to prefer the boxing style strike in combat. They are both experts in their fiedl with differing approaches yet recognise the validity of each others approach.

    I say it matters not a jot - if the opponent goes down and you don't who cares?

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