Traditional Punch and Boxing Punch

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Alexander, Jan 20, 2005.

  1. Alexander

    Alexander Possibly insane.

    O.K, before I start my question I should explain that I am a total heretic when it comes to the traditional martial arts (even though they are what I study!). I slotted in well for the past four years at my old Tae Kwon-Do club where the tradition had been thrown out (Kata, fist chambered at the hip, trad. stances etc...). As a result instread of doing traditional punches we would do those done in boxing.

    When I moved area I took up Shotokan. One of the instructors saw me pounding a bag and told me to stop. He said that I was using the wrong set of muscles and that instead of throwing all my weight behind it I should maintain a very vertical pose and use the lats muscles. Also instead of following through the target on impact, the arm should be fully extended on impact. Apparently although it does not feel as powerful as the boxing punches it is actually more so. I was just wondering what peoples' thoughts are on this?

  2. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    people have been perfecting the pugilist style of boxing for hundreds if not thousands of years. go to any MMA or full contact event and you will see boxing punches being used. in the 70s and 80s muay thai in thailand went through an upheaval from european muay thai fighters coming over, fighting, and winning with superior western boxing techniques (like Ramon Dekker)

    because muay thai is all about winning and not just tradition they adopted boxing punches, and if you watch kyokushin fights they often use boxing style shovel hooks to the body. why? because western boxing has evolved the best system for striking with your hands. period. a lot of eastern styles do use similar if not the same methods, and your shotokan instructor actually sounds like the odd one out here. your shotokan instructor is quite simply full of crap.
  3. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    What your instructor said is both right and wrong depending on what he meant. If you are leaning into a punch then you are losing power because you are causing instability in your stance. I think this is what he meant by not throwing your weight into the stance.
    When practising basics and distance your arm should be fully entended with your wrist fully rotated, this will also stop you from crushing your opponents ribs while countering in gohan kumite.
    As for it being more powerful than a boxers punch, I dont know and doubtless there will be lots of people with differing opinions on it, personally I think a karate punch is more powerful than a boxers punch of equivalent weight and build, although most boxers tend to have greater build than karatekas so it is difficult to know for sure. They would both hurt a lot so I'm not sure it matters.
  4. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    I think the point in shotokan is that you don't lean into a punch or raise your shoulder when you punch - instead you draw power from the push of your rear foot on the ground, the turn of your hip and the pull of your pectoral muscle - it produces very slow punches to begin with, but once you've practiced for a while you get very quick, hard punches and you maintain your balance. Shotokan's a slow-burner of a martial art - it takes a fair while before you can do anything that feels useful.
  5. madfrank

    madfrank Valued Member

    shotokan with its straight punches and vertical posture comes from okinawan childrens karate which was designed by itosu NOT to hurt.

    Boxers follow through and flowing movements are far more powerful.

    We can discuss this ad nauseum but i have offered several times to prove what i say but no one ever takes me up on it apart from over the net :)

    Karate punches are weak generally speaking..

    Certainly if you keep your spine perfectly errect and dont follow through and funniest of all tense on the end of your technique, which was devised as a means of preventing joint damage to the okinawan schoolboys who precticed this you will have insignificent power.

  6. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    well quite if you dont follow through you arent going to beat a boxer who is trying to take your head off. you should always be aiming for the back of his head, not the front
  7. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    If it doesn't feel more powerful then it isn't. Your instructor has just been taught to punch that way and probably doesn't want to accept that a mere sport like boxing would have superior punching mechanics to his traditional gyaku tzuki.
  8. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    lol, karate punches dont hurt? Are you on heroine? You are trained not to follow through as a beginner so while training you dont injure your partner, if you were trying to hurt someone of course you try to follow through.

    and as for the tensing of the muscles, (I had to pick myself up of the floor after reading your comment) that provides the power, if you hit someone with a totally loose flexible arm you are more likely to break your wrist than hurt your opponent.

    Your comments show a severe lack of understanding of basic biomechanics.
  9. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    The difference between a boxer's punch and a karateka's punch is that the boxer is trying to maximize the transfer of momentum to his opponent. So the boxer will put more of his body weight behind the punch and follow through, whereas the karateka will snap back his fist after impact. The energy of the karate punch is delivered more quickly, and is more likely to do local damage, rather than knocking the opponent backwards.

    Scientific America 1979
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    For multiple combinations and speed - box

    For the hardest punch you will feel or see, try a "double hip" from Peter Consterdine (BCA and Shukokai)

    For an all-round ability do me!

    It is horses for courses folks. For anyone who says that TMA punches don't work, then you have not met the above gentleman or someone equally scary in Mr. Terry O'Neil.

    For the TMA'ers who say they are the best, spar a boxer - it is a real eye opener

    Both approaches have validity in different scenarios. I have "reversed punch" more people than I have boxed, but I have that to blend into should I need to. Personally if I had to pick I would go with the boxing style.

    But I don;t have to pick so there! :D
  11. alex_000

    alex_000 You talking to me?

    The difference is you can adjust boxing to your likeing.

    You want to throw 100 punches per minute fast as lightening? No problem you can adjust it this way.

    You want to throw 4 punches where the 3 are just set up punches for the fourth that will send the opponents head 1 meter backwards , no prob.

    You want to throw 3 punches all equally strong and a bit slower ?(that doesn't mean a lot speed is overrated IMO) , it's cool..

    There is no "you must" bull exept from the 1st year when you learn the fundementals. Then it's up to you to build your style.
  12. Scaramouch

    Scaramouch Lost Soul

    Some good points on which is the more powerful punch. I started off in a TMA and learnt karate-style punching - but now I personally prefer a boxing style punch. Karate/TMA style punches can be very fast but quite static because there is little follow through - doesn't lend itself to punching combos. Also the chambering of the fist, albeit a small movement at advanced level, means that the guard is dropped for a split second.

    No one has mentioned the longer term effects of practising both either. I know of a few older karateka with elbow problems from years of punching and locking-out on the elbow. Boxing style punching is better in this respect.
  13. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Boxing was designed by the marquis of queensbury as a training aid for morris dancers as it mimics the handkerchief-waving dance - not true, but anyone can post nonsense like that and call it an argument.

    Offered to people who've been training as long as you - or just threatened the odd beginner? You're suprised that no-one's ever taken you up on your offer to punch them? Hmmm...

    Boxing punches have been scientifically proven unable to break soggy paper (again, not true but...see above)

    And certainly if you lean your head forward and throw your weight forward, you might find your nose in a vulnerable position or, if your opponent can sweep or throw, you could be flat on your face.
  14. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Can I get an Amen
  15. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    Oh boy, the truth REALLY hurts, doesn't it? :D
  16. combat1974

    combat1974 New Member

    Alright mate...i understand what your saying about the punching....i have studied punching and generating power for many years and primarily believe that the appropriate punch techniques to use depend upon your situation..

    eg..when have boxing gloves on or mitts you have confidence as hands are wrapped and protected...but throw the same punch on a mid winters evening outside a night club and you miss target by a few cm's and you have a broken hand and knuckles..

    Also depends upon your the wing chun tsraigh blast punching from chi sao etc is better for quick, fast close up starting the fight.....theres a guy called emin boztepe who punches using his back and leans back as punching and he does pack a real thud!!!

    but generally i'd go with what feels good for you.

    also...if you wanna know what is more powerful,,,,,have various different people hold pads for you and get their opinions...also vary your routines eg...hit pads with mitts, no mitts.....diff size pads etc
  17. combat1974

    combat1974 New Member

    you can tell that the muay thai punching style is more appropriate when you dont have gloves or mitts on...its much shorter...wheras boxers with gloves on can stand back a touch more and when you have gloves on you can release more venom and are not as concerned with breaking your hands up on peoples heads, shoulders etc

    Also the thai styles use elbows massively for protection, so the thai fighters change their punching style for this reason
  18. combat1974

    combat1974 New Member

    Was gonna mention peter consterdine and his power punching....i went on few seminars with peter and generally found that the double hip is excellent at short range, do need to have big forearms and a thich wrist and shovel hands like peter, or your wrist may bend back on impact..

    I use his double hip though all the time but hit with my palm and can generate massive power with the punch or the slaps....

    My old instructor has been best friends with terry o neil for 35 years working the doors in lpool...terry still does them quite a bit...but has mellowed much more with a gentleman....but he hits hard because he is an extremely strong athletic person...even in his late 50's
  19. madfrank

    madfrank Valued Member


    Yoshitaka on seeing shotokan in japan said when did it get to tense

    i cud forever site all my sources or you lot could actually study karate

    the central body fulcrum punch is weak

    try the double hip as suggested above

    this is not traditional karate but it is far stonger LOOSE Punches?

    Never advanced to the internal then

    they are not LOOSE as you say

    but there is no added tension i.e. itosus holding back the power technique for kiddies karate

    Read train open your mind learn.

    youl never learn with a closed mind

    I never threatend beginners
    I offered several times ppl who said their way was stronger to come demonstrate so far no one has. :)

  20. Scaramouch

    Scaramouch Lost Soul

    I see your point - but on the other hand the MMA guys have minimal hand protection, yet the majority (if not all?) use boxing punches. Its more about making a correct fist, regardless of how you punch that prevents hand damage.

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