Traditional Boxing

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Louie, Sep 20, 2004.

  1. Pitfighter

    Pitfighter Valued Member

    Absolutely amazing, I've long known that Boxing was the first true NHB fighting, (even more than pancration or Vale Tudo, what with the gouging and biting) But man the work you've compiled here is a real eye-opener. Absolutely Love it! Really interesting stuff man, I'll try to check out your sources in the near future.
  2. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Throws & Low Down Dirty Blows

    Hi All!
    Came across this article that may be of interest....

    Many of the throws were in clear contraventionof the rule against seizing by “any part below the waist.” Rimmer, for instance,caught Tom Molineaux by the thighs “and threw him in the Lancashire style.”
    Cross-buttock throws were commonplace, and these usually entailed catching
    “by the hams,” while there were some very esoteric manoeuvring at times-as
    when Nicholls ran in furiously, got his head between Jones’ legs, grabbed his
    ankles, and “threw him with considerable violence.”

    Charging at opponentsand barging them was not much liked, but it was not thought unlawful. All blows were allowed except those below the waist, and although there were some accusations of low punching these rarely led to forfeiting the fight. In one
    instance which comes to mind, it took no less than seven “unfair blows” from
    Watson (and 100 rounds) before Hooper was declared the winner of their 1790 fight.

    Karate-style chops on the back of the neck, blows to kidneys, and
    holding round the neck with one arm while punching with the other-these
    were all accepted and admired. Whether or not holding by the hair to do the
    same was within Broughton’s rules is not certain, as there was some doubt over
    whether they forbade seizing by the “hams” or by the “hair.” Holding the hair
    might be considered “foul,” but was seldom penalised by umpires, and,
    incidentally, the proposal that after this had happened in the Jackson-Mendoza
    fight in 1795, boxers subsequently kept their hair cropped does not square at
    all with the many contemporary prints of pugilists-hair was nearly always
    short, and the pioneers, Figg and Broughton, were among the most shorn of
    them all.

    Journal of Sport History, Vol. 12, No. 2 (Summer, 1985)
  3. Koguarox

    Koguarox New Member

    poliakoff s wrong

    Poliakoffs writes a lot of bull.....
    In the past the mediterranean wrestlers sometimes
    kept a sort of cuir helmet to preserve their hair from dust,
    not from hair pulling
  4. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    This is a great thread.

    Just read the whole thing.
  5. Captain Karate

    Captain Karate New Member

    OMG! The punches, the guard, the stance, the concepts. My instructor wasn't lying when he said Wing Chun was closer to Traditional Bareknuckle Boxing than anything else.

    I mean look at the site the stance and guard is pretty much exactly like the WSL WC stance and guard, even with the distinct slight leaning backwards.
  6. elektro

    elektro Valued Member

    Excellent thread ;)
  7. TheMightyMcClaw

    TheMightyMcClaw Dashing Space Pirate

    What exactly were the rules of bareknuckle matches typically? Was kicking allowed? It seems that takedowns were a big part of it, what about groundfighting?
  8. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    I just wanted to add my voice to the chorus of approval for this thread. Please keep the info coming. If only there was a place in Calgary where I could check this out. :(

  9. B.Y.O.B.

    B.Y.O.B. New Member

    Corkscrew punch

    This punch was invented by Kid McCoy. McCoy's "corkscrew" punch was famous for the cutting damage it inflicted on opponents' faces, and he was known for his trickery and unpredictability in the ring as well.

    Attached Files:

  10. Cuchulain4

    Cuchulain4 Valued Member

    Just a thought.

    Seeing the simularity to WC, is it possible that WC was created by Chinese who learnt Bareknuckle boxing from the British Settlers?

    I could be way off the mark but no one knows exactly where WC has come from.
  11. Guizzy

    Guizzy with Arnaud and Eustache

    I doubt that, at least, not in its entirety. Wing Chun has close ties with other older Chinese Martial Arts.

    The most likely (not proved or anything; it just makes so much more sense than the other stories I've heard) story I have heard about the source of Wing Chun is different. Let me explain:

    Mr Martin Watts (he sometimes reads and write on this forum) has been on a trip to China, some time ago; he went to the town of Yong Chun in the province of Fujian. Now, Yong Chun (in case you didn't know), is also the Mandarin pronounciation for Wing Chun. Now, it would make sense that Wing Chun would have originated from that town, right?

    Yet, when Mr Watts came to Yong Chun, he did not find a significant amount of Wing Chun Quen being practiced; what he found, though, is that the villagers practiced an art they call Yong Chun Bai He (Yong Chun White Crane).

    Now what would make much sense is that Wing Chun is an offspring of this Yong Chun Bai He, perhaps even not volountarly split (perhaps one master just didn't like to use the last part and cut the name to Wing Chun). Many styles have originated from White Crane, like the five Fuzhou White Crane arts (one of which I practice).

    Other things that could indicate this history could be true: Wing Chun and White Crane seem to have much in common: fondness with short power (though the short power is not exactly of the same origin), centerline, stances are similar, guards are similar (importance in keeping one's bridge and on breaking the opponent's), use of push-hands (which is very close in purpose to Chi Sao)...

    Some claim that Wing Chun originates (directly of through the teaching of a master) from a lady. This is also true of White Crane.

    While snooping around on the net, I seem to get the impression that this is a view held by many.

    Mr Watts says it in a much more scholarly manner in this post.
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2006
  12. Guizzy

    Guizzy with Arnaud and Eustache

    Even before I started training, I did practice a similar punch; mostly from what I gathered from watching karate stuff (although I did not put enough shoulder into it). I also practice a similar punch (but better ;D) now that I train seriously in Kung Fu.

    While it sounds like basic stuff for Asian Martial Arts, this must have been a very shocking thing to experience for a Bareknuckle not expecting such a "twist" (pun intended).

    CMAs also tend to incorporate "secret" techniques meant to twart or surprise other styles of CMAs, so this again shows the closeness between Bareknuckle boxing and asian martial arts.
  13. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Boxing & Wing Chun

    The similarities between Wing Chun and Early forms of Western Boxing have been the topic of discussion many, many years ago in an article in Combat magazine. The writer suggested that British sailors 'boxing' in the Chinese ports of Hong Kong, etc, had influenced arts such as Wing Chun.

    There have been similar discussions regarding Filipino MA being influenced by Spanish rapier fencing and UK & US Navy personel performing single-stick fencing.

    The answer to the question is we will never know, but it would be a shame to dismiss western arts as inferior to the more popular asian ones.


  14. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    It would be both a shame and also wildly inaccurate. Any society that fights a lot will discover the most effective ways to do damage to their enemies.

    Best regards,

  15. Captain Karate

    Captain Karate New Member

  16. Emil

    Emil Valued Member

    I'm actually in the middle of writing an article about pugilism, so keep your eyes out for it in a couple of weeks.
  17. fatb0y

    fatb0y Valued Member

    Brilliant stuff - thank you to all the people that have researched this information.
  18. Raskulv

    Raskulv New Member

    I must just say that you have done a great work gathering this information Louie. I try to train some of the stances and guards every now and then. Even if i have trained kickboxing for 5 years this stuff feels more natural to me for some reason... well anyway, many thanks to you Louie for all this infromation
  19. Einstein Mcfly

    Einstein Mcfly New Member

    This is a really great thread. Thanks to all who have contributed.
  20. FONB

    FONB Banned Banned

    I do like this thread as well an just found it.

    I agree with alot of the stuff said here Wing Chung i study it an do think it has alot in common with Old Boxing method an even to days dirty boxing. They all try to apply very simple an specific idea that build a natural strong foundation with the hands.

Share This Page