Traditional Boxing

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Louie, Sep 20, 2004.

  1. kenpfrenger

    kenpfrenger sportin' a Broughton

    Nice pics of the cross counter Louie....most folks nowadays call the rear straight punch a cross but originally a cross was a counter punch that snuck in over the straight left as shown in the top photos.
  2. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    First I must say that i have enjoyed reading this thread and am always glad when louie updates it.

    And I dont understand how people can call boxing a slow brutsih art. even modern boxing isnt swlo or brutish, I was breifly on a boxing kick and was watching pro boxing on a regualr basis, even the heavy weights werent all that slwo and brutish, kinda clumsy as they got wore out but thats expected.
  3. Anthony Shore

    Anthony Shore New Member

    I quite was another poster who was comparing his Kenjutsu to American Boxing, proclaiming it slow and brutish and incapable of blocking a "crecent" kick and that he was "duely unimpressed".

    There is no comparrison between the two arts and I am sure that if he had stood toe to toe with a professional boxer...heck, even an amateur and fought using only the rules and techniques of "boxing", he probably would have gotten his tushie kicked. but then...this is the same guy who tried to compare the Japanese Katana with the European great sword. People, please! if you are going to make comparrisons, compare with something "in its own class!"...Compare Kenjutsu with Tae Quan Do or some other art that allows you to use your body in the same manners, not with European or American Boxing. Alot of what "used" to be allowed in boxing is not allowed any longer apparently.

    Anyway...rant over.
  4. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    lol I remember that guy. If you spar with a sport based fighter of course you will most likely win if you are a more real world base fighter. But if he had fasced off against a person taking boxing for SD things might be different.
    And Kenjutsu doesnt ahve cresent kicks, most arts dont have them except the flashier forms of TKD and such.
    And comparing the katana to a great sword is ike comparing a 9mm to a .50 cal rifle

    Anyways back tot topic at hand.

    *fades out like a ninja onnly not cuz hes not a ninja*
  5. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Boxing - Training!!

    There's little detail of a boxer's training in the late 1600-1700's, many of those who became prominent were labour intensive tradesmen; Butchers, Coachmen, Farmers & Blacksmiths. (In-fact techniques such as the butcher's chopping motion developed into the Chopper blow)

    It's doubtful if they spent a fraction of the time in 'training' as today's boxing champions do but this painting illustrates the physical condition of champion pugilists of the early period...


    Attached Files:

  6. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    intersting how they have shaven heads....and lack the massivly developed chest ive seen on many modern Pro boxers. In fact if i were put on 10-15 mor epound id proably look like that.
  7. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Boxing - Hair Pulling!


    Attached Files:

  8. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    I had figured it was something like that, well all except the single stick bouting. That is new. And it sound painful. Everytime I read about how you had to draw andinch of blood with a stick on your opponents head, I wince.... a lot
  9. kenpfrenger

    kenpfrenger sportin' a Broughton

    You'll note that under my name it says..."Sportin' a Broughton" That is a reference to my shaved head. Jack Broughton is one of the men you posted a picture of Louie:)....and speaking of Broughton who many have called the father of boxing, he fell prey to the chopper blow when he lost his title to Jack Slack. He received so many of the downward grazing blows to his brows that he was a blindman in the ring.
  10. kenpfrenger

    kenpfrenger sportin' a Broughton

    I also believe that I read possibly in Poliakoffs book on ancient combat sports, that boxers and wrestlers in ancient Greece kept their hair short to save from it being grabbed. You could look at a man and know he was no fighter by the length of his hair.
  11. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    i like! really nice stuff!
  12. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    I guess that means im not a hairs is about should length right now. Mainly to upset my dstep dad. LOL and i dont even live with my folks anymore.
  13. wayofthedragon

    wayofthedragon The Defender

    Wow....some very interesting stuff. I can't believe I didn't run into this thread earlier. Keep it coming. I think I read somethings on this before. Maybe I can get deeper into it now....because this is something that shouldn't be forgotten in my oppinion. Thanx
  14. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Boxing Mendozians...

    Brute strength and endurance is how pugilist matches are often descibed...

    It was Daniel Mendoza who devised a system of guarding, sidestepping, and effective use of a straight left jab. His tactics were extremely successful, relying on superior agility and speed he won the British Championship in 1791.

    In his 1795 fight it was only by grabbing hold of Mendoza's hair that John Jackson was able to nullify Mendoza's tactics, unmercifully pummelling his face with uppercuts, “When Mendoza remonstrated to the referee, he was told there was no rule against holding one’s opponent by the hair and it was a darn shame, wasn’t it?”

    Follower of Mendoza's style in the ring or in the street were known as Mendozians (today it would be a bit like being a Bruce Leeian or an Inosantian)


    Attached Files:

  15. Claudinha

    Claudinha Valued Member


    I have read alot of people make the clain that Wing Chun and Bare Knuckle Boxing influenced each other. Here is a site I found interesting.

    In regards to stance, what is your opinion on this group's take?

    I tv show that had an old John L. Sullivan throwing very modern looking punches. But when he threw a hook, he looked like he pounded his chest (or shoulder) with his rear hand for leverage. Although he may have been making a defense. Some things I always wondered: 1) Could the distance of the fights have had any bearing on how low the fists were held, 2) How much an influence fencing had on old boxing (see Tao of JKD?), 3) How much wars contributed to this style almost completely disappearing.
    Whenever I watch the olympics I have seen some of the European fighters (especially Eastern Europeans) fighting a more straight ahead stand-up style. This looks like it is probably more related to the bare-knuckle style than anything.
  16. kenpfrenger

    kenpfrenger sportin' a Broughton

    Hi Claudinha!

    I don't put much stock in the wing chun from BKB theory...interesting speculation but that's about all it is IMO. As for the two links...they are both mine so I can't comment on them without some bias:) The stance article does need to be updated. Hopefully i will get around to that sometime soon.

    For your questions....

    1. THe fists were held at different heights during different eras...some low, some high but you are spot on about the distance. THe furhter distance allowed for a lower stance and a more extended stance as well for some fighters.

    2. Boxing, wrestling and fencing as well as singlestick were sometimes groupped together and often were taught int he same gym. One of the old names for boxing was fencing witht he fists:)

    3. Both the world wars had a terrible impact on the number of savateurs that survived in France. I would not doubt that they had some effect ont he boxers as well but overall I think the use of gloves had the biggest impact on changing the old styles of boxing. If you can check out Dempseys bridges the gap between the bare knuckle era and the modern one.......great stuff!
  17. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Pugilisms influences....

    Hi Claudinha,

    The more I look at some of the old photos of western boxers, the more I think of the influence pugilism must have had on the early development of 18-1900's Kung Fu and Karate. Boxing would have been seen in the Chinese & Japanese ports practiced by UK & US sailors. European soldiers too, stationed throughout Asia must have influenced the local population with their boxing bouts which were probably a public event!

    There is no doubt that Europeans were influenced by Asian arts, so why not the reverse?

    Two World Wars certainly had an effect on the practice/teaching of European martial arts which may have been down to the huge casualty rate, loss of teachers etc. Another factor may have been a total loss of interest in all things martial?


    Attached Files:

  18. Claudinha

    Claudinha Valued Member

    Sorry...didn't mean to repost stuff. Very good websites though...both of them. Are you aware if any footage of one of these contests still exists? It would be great if someday someone is digging through an old vault of something and fines some old films!

    I always wonder if different cultures have had more influence on each other than people think or if it's just a Jungian thing and if given the right situations we will mostly come to similar conclusions?!
  19. Rob Lovett

    Rob Lovett Valued Member

    Well Bare Knuckle Boxing survived well into the 60s in the East End of London. Many of our members had grandads and dads that would gather on various commons on Sunday after Church and before the big Sunday dinner and set about in bkb fights. People would watch and if appreciative of what they were watching would throw coins into a hat carried by the fighters seconds. The takings would largely go to the winner, while the loser would at least get a pint in the local pub.
    This sadly does not happen anymore :( it is a shame as it feels like another part of East End community and tradition has been lost.

  20. punchfast

    punchfast New Member

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