Toughening, "Iron Body" vs CUT, PUNCTURE, Blunt, etc.

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Diagen, Jul 7, 2021.

  1. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Boxer Rebellion - Wikipedia

    Wiki says it was a part of the war, it probably worked well to get people ready to fight, overwhelming self belief does help,

    "The opportunities to fight against Western encroachment and colonization were especially attractive to unemployed village men, many of whom were teenagers. The tradition of possession and invulnerability went back several hundred years but took on special meaning against the powerful new weapons of the West. The Boxers, armed with rifles and swords, claimed supernatural invulnerability against cannons, rifle shots, and knife attacks. Furthermore, the Boxer groups popularly claimed that millions of soldiers would descend out of Heaven to assist them in purifying China of foreign oppression."
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  2. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    The rebellion was really a reactionary movement anti Christian anti foreign and pro Ching, it had several names plum flower boxers, boxers United in righteousness, the red lantern shining, the armour of the golden bell and the general name Big swords. Lou Shiduan who is credited as the founder and leader of the big sword society was a master of the armour of the golden bell ....another name for iron body.

    There were several fractions within the societies one was known as the spirit boxers not martial artists they chanted did spells performed dances etc to make themselves invulnerable to attack they became very popular within the poor whilst the golden bell association was more associated with the wealthier citizens.

    So yes it was real, yes it was complex and yes it almost destroyed Chinese martial arts
    Which is ironic because there's evidence that a lot of the poor attracted to the spirit boxers were not martial artists but simply practicing spirit movements spells and dance like movements to make themselves invulnerable to attack
  3. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Are there any records of the Armour rituals? What exactly were they doing, there has to be some evidence of their practices.

    No photographs? There is so little to go by. So I searched and found something interesting. It doesn't seem like the "Armour of the Golden Bell" was body conditioning at all, but typical magickal gimmicks. That and the beating with bricks and sticks part. Yeah I'm sure after enough drink and beating, you'll feel pretty numb :D

    “When they study their techniques, the poor need not make an offering, but those who can, offer 6,000 Beijing cash as a gift. In the middle of the night, they kneel and receive instruction. They light lamps and burn incense, draw fresh water from a well and make offerings of it. They write vulgar charms (fu-lu) on white cloth. The words of the charms are vulgar and improper. There are such phrases as “Patriarch, Duke of Zhou; Immortals of the Peach Blossom; Golden Bell, iron armor protect my body.”

    Those who spread the art can neither read nor write. They have others write for them. They also teach spells (zhou). While chanting spells they burn charms, mixing [the ashes] in water and instructing [the initiate] to kneel and drink. Then [the teacher] breathes in from above the lantern, and blows out over [the initiate’s] entire body. Then he beats him with a brick and staff. It is said that after much chanting for a long time, even firearms cannot harm one.

    It is much like breathing exercises (yun-qi). Where the “breath” (qi) moves, even a fierce chop cannot penetrate. But if one loses concentration, then the blade will enter. The simple people do not understand, and think it is a magical technique.”

    Report of the Daotai of Xuzhou quoted in Esherick p. 105
  4. Diagen

    Diagen Banned Banned

    Tough skin doesn't mean dry and calloused. It's just tougher, bit thicker, bit denser, but still alive and full of color. You can try the half-dead method of stronger skin but you can try the half-dead method of training your strength as well. Same ignorance. Incremental progression. Moderation. Easy. Heel is thick because you walk on it and a foot stone on dry calloused feet will show you it's very healthy skin and flesh. Body is full of skins and sheaths. Impacts to the body make such stronger. Sheer stress like an Indian Burn similarly. Getting in deep isn't too difficult it just requires diligence. Every day, consistently, incrementally.

    You are right about the heels being tough from conditioning but I am not sure where you are getting this info on astronauts. How did you obtain this bit of trivia? You are most likely making this up because it makes sense to you. You can indeed be as conditioned on the heel all over the body as there are those much more dedicated than yourself. This is fact. Anyone dedicated can achieve it, it isn't irrational at all. If you train handstand walking for instance you will experience something similar. This is just an example and most of the obstacles involved with handstand walking are strength related, not palm conditioning related -- this should illustrate how easy it is to develop.
    Let me point out that even the bones are wrapped in a membrane that can toughen while remaining youthful. It is because it is a membrane like the skin that this is possible. Even the skin on your heel can experience the benefits of ointment, especially if rubbed into it. It is not dysfunctional skin. A simple scrub stone on the sole of the foot will remove dead skin and any lotion or ointment will be effective if before it wasn't from layers of thick callouses.

    Golden Bell in Shaolin takes 10 years to complete and is just slapping and beating yourself starting light then progressing incrementally. You can look up 72 arts of shaolin and read up on it yourself.
  5. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    It was turn of the last century in China, a country in turmoil for decades which then saw the cultural Revolution and the destruction of almost it's whole history at hands of the Communists.

    Unfortunately little survived and what did was scattered around the country.

    What we can draw fro the historical records is that the movement wasn't one big movement but several groups operating separately then together for mutual interest, some groups ran my martial artists with real skills and training in iron body (which is basically hitting yourself to become tougher lol) some run my trisksters using positions and rituals to make people think they would become invulnerable, the point is neither proved effective against bullets and bayonets.
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  6. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Projection much? I don't make stuff up. That appears to be more your MO.

    Something bizarre happens to your feet when you spend months in space
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  7. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    I was going to say, gravity is the only reason any of us are strong to begin with. Muscle is something that evolution produced in order for us to pick ourselves up off the earth, after we lived millions of years as flat worms or something in primordial soup. :)

    Fast forward to today, there's no real biological survival reason I'm lifting this barbell, but it's making my body stronger without spells so I guess I found the real Iron Body magic. :D
  8. hewho

    hewho Valued Member

    "curls for the girls (or guys, or non binaries, depending on preference)" is a definite biological reason?
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  9. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    You got me there. :p
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  10. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    My standard response to thinking if something is possible or not is "what would the real world implications of this be if it WAS possible?".
    In other words, what would I see in the world if this thing actually existed and worked?
    Looking at things like that starts to show how much nonsense there is in the world.
    If you could train to knock people out by staring at them or throwing chi balls then special forces and SWAT teams would storm a hostage situation and just stare at people rather than kicking in doors, throwing flash bangs and then shooting anyone who doesn't look like a hostage. Hell they could stay outside and just stare through the windows. But that's not what they do.
    If manipulating chi can make you stronger, faster, more efficient, more stable, unthrowable, etc then the results in MANY sporting events would look radically different. Old geezers with 50 years of Tai Chi would win WSM, the Tour de France, boxing titles, gold medals at the olympics, etc etc. But they don't.
    If you could train to develop sakki and the ability to detect threat or danger then snipers and IED's would be obsolete weapons of war. They are not obsolete.
    If you could train to make your body impervious to knife cuts then bouncers, bobbies and gang members would probably like to have that protection. Instead they wear body armour and stab vests.
  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    If it exists, and the resources required for entry are not beyond a rich (money or time) person, then it would be common, thats how capitalism works.
  12. Botta Dritta

    Botta Dritta Valued Member

    I was going to refuse to enter this nonsense debate out of principle, but just to say I have never come across anywhere in my study of bladed history where any culture has toughened human skin to be impervious or even efficiently successful against cuts or stabs. Like nowhere. If bladed encounters were common, if they could afford it they wore metal or fabric armour or if they couldn't they wore extra layers of clothing.

    The monofibre stuff we wear in fencing provides some protection,at FIE 800 Newtons on a broken steel blade, never mind a sharp one, and even then its not 100%. We wear an obligatory underplastron to provide an extra protective layer against the most vulnerable part of the whole kit: the armpit. Answers on a postcard please on the methodology of how you toughen skin under the armpit.

    There is some circumstantial evidence that Roman Gladiators used to be quite er... fat, to provide an extra layer against cut's, but this is debatable and not accepted by all historians

    As for belief in invulnerability, during the postwar anti-colonial revolutionary movements in the 60's and 70's getting high on ket and charmed amulets were sometimes were used by african revolutionaries under the recommendations of witchdoctors that they would be invulnerable to kalashnikov's.
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  13. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Which is why my standard response, unlike Smitfire's more cerebral approach, is "I have many sharp weapons, a waiver, and a tourniquet. How many limbs and how much blood are you willing to bet?" It's certainly a good way to discover new excuses I hadn't heard before.
  14. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

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