In comparison to Jiu jitsu... the idea is that if I can stay in motion I avoid your position and therfore the majority of your practice time is out the window and you can't submit me... so I keep you out of your comfort zone... if you catch me in a position then I must escape quickly before you establish a base and I then attack as I escape and/or stay in motion... of course if I get caught good and can't escape your position then you might just get me... unless I escape while you are readjusting your body to gain leverage on me... then I regain my freedom to attack you... steve
This is excellent. Wicks lives in NC, right? That's not too far from where I live. Could ya hook a brotha up? It's hard to avoid the politics of the whole thing. I still think Tony's LAOH was pretty decent, and Furey's stuff, overpriced though it is, shows how to modify amature wrestling moves into subs. Jake Shannon is definitely trying to make money off of the whole thing, too, but his reprints and his working together with both old-time wrestlers and modern wrestlers and fighters is starting to bring Catch to the forefront again. I believe this last part is invaluable 'cause all the old-time hookers, sad to say, probably aren't going to be around ten years from now. Hatmaker is sort of a different bag of worms. I have to admit a prejudice 'cause I train with him all the time and actually consider him a good friend. I'd like to note that he calls the grappling he teaches "all-in wrestling" or "Western scientific wrestling"; I don't think he's used the term "catch as catch can" in any of his products, other than as one of several sources upon which he draws. He's also something of an historian. That said, he has always been vague about where he learned his techniques. I just know the guy's a great athlete, coach, and technician. For what it's worth, in his opening of "Beyond Brazilian Jiujitsu" he makes similar remarks about possition vs. scramble. He terms it "pinning" (BJJ possitional approach) and "riding" (wrestling approach). He also emphasizes taking the top possition whenever possible in his material. There's one mention of CACC on his website:
Another question for you rubberband: Do you know why most catch people seem leery to compete in no-gi/open rules grappling competitions?
Great question... basically No Gi tournaments are based around the Bjj model of grappling... points are awarded for positions... catch wrestlers stay in motion and after getting points for take down don't usually get many more... open rules tends to mean "open to anything with in the Bjj paradigm" Bjj players have several advantages in no gi tournaments in that their art and training is based around that exact type of fighting under those exact rules... catch wrestlers find that atleast 2/3 of their arsenal is illegal and often find out that even more techniques are illegal after they submit their opponent and the referee decides that the technique was illegal... which is another issue... referees tend to understand Bjj and think in the Bjj way... catch wrestling is considered a sub standard form of grappling with potentially dangerous techniques associated with it... many referees seem to think that catch wrestlers are for the most part poorly trained aggressive brutes who practice a made up cobbled together mish mash of hurting people based on suplex throws, neck breaking, gouging, leg locks, and really bad no gi Bjj... so some referees tend to make questionable calls based around safety that favor the bjj player or negatively effect the wrestler... I shouldn't forget to include the prejudice of bjj fighters against catch wrestlers... nothing like being in a room of people who think you are an idiot for practicing a sub standard art when you could be doing bjj... it is funny though that the higher ranked Bjj people will sneak off and beg you for leg lock info in a back room then turn around and laugh at you when they are with their teams... another factor is that there simply are not that many qualified shooters around to go to tournaments... many of us have been there and done that when we were learning have a strong distaste for it... the wrestlers who tend to go to tournaments are new to catch wrestling and don't have the experience to know they are the underdog from the start... they usually get out pointed by "positon and cuddle" fighters or their submission wins are relegated to the use of some of that sub standard bjj... those of us who have been down that road of bad calls, legitimate submissions that were illegal after the tap, and fighting with most of our art and practiced technique illegal... usually discourage others from fighting in No gi tournaments because they do not demonstrate anything positive about catch wrestling... they demonstrate Bjj and since catchwrestling is very different than Bjj... catch wrestlings 1/3 or less of legal techniques and what looks to outsiders as scared and aim less flopping around doesn't work well under Bjj rules... and the catch wrestlers who try to bend to the rules and make their personal expression of catch wrestling more favorable for no gi grappling end up developing a system of sub standard bjj... it is a vicious cycle... that only further fuels the misunderstanding and disrespect that catch wrestling suffers... by substantiating the myths of the larger bjj community... take care, steve
I think Kempofist is correct... attending no gi tournaments causes catch wrestling as a whole to lose... 2/3 of the techniques are lost... credibility is lost due to prejudice and the structure of the tournaments themselves... yes... I myself have lost in these tournaments to back mount choke and front choke... I even put on a jacket once and got arm barred because I was affraid of the collar choke... I won some too but I learned more from my loses... maybe catch wrestling is about losing... like when I wrestle now my opponents lose track of where I am and then wake up a few minutes later with lost time... lose on brothers... steve
I'm with ya on the difference in mentality while rolling, but I'm having a hard time believing this whole "2/3's of our techniques are illegal" thing. What the hell kinda submissions are you doing that are illegal? Jamming the thumb into the windpipe type stuff? Or "lemon" type attempts at armbars from unorthodox position and such that either have the high opportunity to fail, or the slim chance that it will work but will end up breaking the arm because there's no time to tap?
Wow! This has been an excellent post. I have often wondered about catch as catch can. Very informative, thanks to all those who have posted!
While I think that Jake Shannon's article is very telling, I think that the most interesting part of the article is the letter from Karl Gotch. While there is no way to totally prove that the letter is authentic, I don't doubt the claim that it is. If Karl Gotch discredits Matt Furey in the way he did, I'm willing to take his word for it. Even though Jake's purpose in writing that letter was to use Karl Gotch's letter to discredit Tony C., if you read the article and the letter, you'll realize that Karl is only talking about Matt Furey, and not Tony C.. As such, I'll wait till the fat lady sings before I make any judgments about Tony C.'s credibility, though it does seem shaky at best. As Firequan posted on another thread: The longer a rumor floats around, the more likely it is to be true (or something like that).
Kempofist, it is obvious that you think catch wrestling is a cobbled together mish mash of gouging and bad bjj... the moves that have been most often considered illegal in tournaments... pretty much all the neck cranks: front face lock, chin lock, nelson series (not the prowrestling nelsons that you may be familiar with) leg locks: heel hook gets alot of scrutiny, spinning toe hold is another one that is not understood... over scissors get the most negative opinion since the guy who should be winning based on Bjj thinking loses... shin smashes are also not thought of as legitimate... arm locks that involve the head... arm locks that involve the palm of the hand... sometimes considered small joint manipulation... head scissors... looks like a really bad triangle choke to those who don't understand it... these moves are high percentage and unlike Bjj you don't try to apply them... you apply them with the whole body... which some referees see as slamming into your opponent or putting the move on to quickly... also to prevent opponent's from latching on and stalling the fight catch wrestling utilizes a lot of pain oriented techniques to make the opponent move... most of these are illegal since they are considered unecessary roughness. the other side of this in terms of tournaments is that catch wrestlers train with these techniques daily and defend themselves against them... when they enter the sterile bjj world there is a transition from moving defensively against ripping and bumping and finding yourself held on to and being not allowed to rip your way out... so the 2/3 of the art not included contains the submissions that are illegal or looked down upon, the ripping to keep the opponent from stalling, and the defensive techniques that are ingrained but not needed for the tournament that put the wrestler a positions where points are awarded to the bjj player... take care, steve
Quite the contrary. I don't have enough information yet to even have an opinion. All I am going on is that letter I read a while back that was posted in this thread, and your explanation. I see what you're getting at. A lot of these moves depend on which skill level you are competing in. Also whether you are in the gi or not. BJJ gi rules are by far the most stringent, and in entering the white belt division you pretty much are limited to the bare basics, so your frustration is understandable. Entering higher level no-gi divisions where your arsenal is less limited...well now you're up against high caliber BJJ players so I can see the frustration there too. I'd like to comment though, that I have quite a few submissions at my disposal that defeat my opponent who appears to be winning or in a more dominant position. They are legal, but some can be risky to both myself and my opponent. If the "head scissor" is what I'm thinking it is (squeezing your opponents neck between your thighs with both arms out) then I can say that yes that is not only really bad BJJ, but really bad grappling in general, and anyone you get to tap to that is either out-matched in physical size...or is just a serious wuss. I do agree that the line between sportsmanlike and unsportsmanlike grappling at tournaments is a fine one to walk. Same as above. Jerking and exploding out of positions or submissions is something common and very much allowed. You usually see the more wrestling oriented grapplers utilizing such tactics rather than slow methodical technique at local Grappler's Quests and NAGA's. Grabbing your opponents face however (for example), and shoving yourself away against his nose to break guard however falls into a bit more ambiguous territory. Interesting synopsis. Reminds me of rolling with KillingMoon/Shen Yi. Pretty unorthodox, uses elbows and knuckles into muscle groups to create space, and keeps exploding on me
What you describe is nothing like a real head scissors... but it comes close to a description of a really poorly applied attempt at a head scissors... the horror of people who learn from video... most of the guys I know who still fight in No Gi do so in the advanced division... that is where I faught back in my day... simply because it allowed more submissions... but it is in these more advanced levels where these moves seem legal up until they get put on someone... I can't say this enough... people have not seen real catch wrestling or the specific technical science behind the holds to understand what catch wrestling is... what people have seen is prowrestling and wannabe catch wrestling... when people collect a group of holds that look like what catch wrestlers do and apply them they don't work because the key principles of leveage or proper alignment are missing... usually because the wannabes try them from bjj positions... in jiu jitsu the arm bar is the starting point for submission training because it comes from positions... in catch wrestling it is the side wrist lock that is the starting point because it is picked up during wrestling and then the arm bar is used as a back up to the side wrist lock because you will have moved to a position to apply the side wrist lock and the arm bar is a natural extension of both positions and the side wrist lock... I really don't want to go down this road of how unfair no gi tournaments are to catch wrestlers again... I did this years ago at budoseek and no one there gained respect for catch wrestling... I think it is best to simply point out that catch wrestling and jiu jitsu are two distinct approaches to ground grappling that both have passionate supporters... all I am trying to do here in this thread is to inspire folks to not judge catch wrestling hastily and to seek out the real art... prowrestling did evolve from catch wrestling because it was easier to fix fights with actors than it was to ask a guy who trained his whole life and had his heart and pride in it to throw a fight to money... the unfortunate fall out of this gambling based ruse is that fake prowrestling holds replaced the real catch wrestling techniques in the minds of the public... that is not to say that real catch was not always hanging around the edges of prowrestling... it just wasn't taught to just any body... and yes traditionally catch wrestling does employ unsportsman like techniques... catch evolved among the poor who needed a form of dirty fighting to survive... Billy Wicks once taught a mount escape where you haymaker punch the guy on top as you move to shrimp to your side and step over his leg... the side head lock was origionally a way of holding a guy while you gouged out his eye... the sugar hold is a way to easily thrust a dagger into the axillary artery.... many of the leg locks place an opponent face down on their weapon and allow you to draw yours... so catch wrestling has a darker side that is not so laughable... keep in mind that I am a died in the wool combatives guy first and foremost... I like catch wrestling because it allows me to see my opponent when he draws his knife and gives me tools to control the weapon away from me... what happens when a guy draws his knife while he is in your guard? take care, steve
Look up the wikipedia entry on Karl Gotch to get an insight into Catch wrestlings part in early MMA - an awesome read. It's really cool - he was involved with training Kazushi Sakuraba and some other fighters over in Japan. He had guys fighting in RINGS too.
Great post(s) Steve, I for one am listening and trying to understand(piece together in my mind) what you are saying. Thank you for your input. Paul.
Could you briefly describe a real head scissors, and explain whether it is a pain compliance move or something that is genuinely disabling? I've been "head scissored" by grapplers calling themselves catch wrestlers (I think they might be ARMA?) but aside from making me worry about cauliflower ear and once give me a headache, it was simple to twist out of it and obtain top position. Can you explain what is wrong with applying the catches from BJJ positions? See him when he draws his knife? Hmm. I thought that BJJ's emphasis on the guard resulted because of a desire to always be able to see what's going on, unlike say if you spin to all fours facing away to scramble upright. And for that matter... what happens when a guy draws his knife when you're turned away from him on all fours and you don't even know he has it? The guard is not a position that BJJ'ers want to be in anymore than I'm sure you want to be on hands and knees on bottom. Back, Side control, mount, even top of half guard are preferable to being in guard.
let me try to explain the knife issues this way... in catch wrestling emphasis is on controling the arms and head and staying on top of the opponent... there is no spin and turn your back move... sound like free style wrestling to me... not sure where you got that... and like I said before there is alot of crap out there claiming to be catch wrestling... catch wrestling is about control... my point relative to knife defense is that catch wrestling places emphasis on staying up and above an opponent and in motion free from positions which makes it less likely that an opponent can draw a knife late in the fight and surprise a catch wrestler since the wrestler is free to run away... and catch wrestling places an emphasis on staying behind an opponent and on controling limbs... two other important factors when a blade may be involved late in the fight... I think you brought up a good point about defensive positions though... in catch wrestling we do go to our knees in turtle position alot... this is because we are half way to standing up at this point... catch wrestlings base of motion is working toward standing up or keeping the other guy down... you can't start catch wrestling submissions from postions because the most important thing is entering into a position in a way that defeats the opponents ability to defend the submission... if I am already in a position it is more difficult to set my opponent up and hit the correct angle and it can be hard to move my whole body into the submission... which makes it a contest of strength instead of a technique of leverage... power comes from mass applied in motion at the correct angle... one important concept of catch wrestling is to not use positions where your spine is in line with your opponents... like mount, backmount, or guard... the reason is because you must use your legs to hold these positions and are therefore trapped in them... and when you move from them you are vulnerable to attack... this is a good point about the difference in stategy: in Bjj you gain back mount and then work for the choke... in modern catch wrestling we gain the choke then work to back mount... traditionally there were not chokes... only neck cranks because they are so much easier to get than chokes... I think I should add an explaination that Johnny Huskey once used to describe the difference between catch wrestling and Bjj... it is not an exact quote but went something like this, "in jiu jitsu they control the center and work out toward the limbs... in catch wrestling we control the limbs and work into the center." anyway... here is one way to do a head scissors from a reference position most of you can relate to... first let me explain some terms... top = refers to beside head, low = closer to feet, far = refers to across the body, near = refers to on the same side as you are on... although catch wrestling does not use positions we do ride on positional relationships similar to some you are familiar with... take side mount, hook your low arm under opponents far arm pit, with your top arm overhook opponents near arm placing your forearm across his upper arm and place your palm on your stomach and clamp your elbow into your side. then step over his head with your top leg this will lift his shoulder a little bit as you slide your low leg under his head until your knee is directly under his neck and you cross your foot behind your posted ankle, keep control of his arm the whole time. sit back align your top knee under his chin and straighten your legs rolling your knee caps inward as you post on your free forearm and turn your belly to the ground... rotate toward opponent's feet and turn all the way to belly down... done correctly your opponent's neck is extended and squeezed as his head is lifted and bent forward making it to where he can't get out... not responsible for your stupidity with this move... go slow until you figure it out... then apply it while free rolling and let me know what you think. be careful and have fun, steve
More catch stuff, based on reprints and other observations: In the original CACC rules, the pin was an acceptable way to win. In practically any old wrestling manuals, pins get much more attention than "punishment" holds. Common manuvers include various Nelsons, toe holds, scissor locks on the head and body, crotch lifts, and bent arm locks, primarily the double wristlock (Kimura to you Graciephiles ) but also various arm-scissoring movements which at first glance appear to be "bicep cutter" variations. In fact the hold originally termed the "keylock" was one such arm-scissors technique. Also included are your basic takedowns like the single- and double-leg, bodylock, high crotch, some trips and sweeps, flying mares (shoulder throws), and headlock/hiplock throws. Again, the rules make all the difference. If you were on your back you were at risk to be pinned. As such, "guardwork" is non-existant. It also seems that many of the holds that are recognizable as subs in modern submission wrestling were used to turn the opponent to his back, including straight arm bars, double wristlocks, reverse double wristlocks (Americanas, far less frequent in the texts) and neumerous toeholds. Looking at the works of amature wrestling coach E. C. Gallagher ("Wrestling", published in 1939) you can also see the DWL being used as a way to escape from the back or to take the opponent down. Ed Lewis's works (pup. 1926) also include a number of DWL's used as takedowns and pinning manuvers. You also find your basic RNC in some of these manuals, though it's noted that it's barred in wrestling bouts. Likewise some toe holds, bar hammerlocks, and scissoring maneuvers are demonstrated but noted as "illegal in amature competitions". It's interesting to note the progression of the ruleset; in Edward Hitchcock's "Wrestling, Catch-as-Catch-Can Style", originally published around the turn of the century (I've got varying dates, oldest is 1897), he demonstrates the Flying Mare with the palm up, basically a shoulder throw that's easily an elbow break, a hold that is specifically barred in later manuals. I'd also like to note that while pinning is the only way to win that's ever explicitly expressed in the rules I've seen, there are some references (like in Hitchcock's book) of making an opponent give up a fall because he can't continue, because a hold is punishing him so much. From everything I've seen I'd conclude that the pin was the definite goal of a match, and even though the option of a submission was nearly always present, it seemed like a less-desired way to win. You also have to recall that there was no point system back in the day. Jake Shannon, in association with Dick Cardinal and a few others, recently held a "King of Catch Wrestling" tournament. There were no points, wins were by 3-count pinfall or submission, matches were best 2/3 falls. Can't remember the time limit, but it was something like ten minutes. I'm not going to re-watch any of these, but I do recall either during the tourney or in a highlight at least one instance where a guy went for a guard sub (triangle maybe?) and got pinned. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dz_xwsR3PVA&feature=user]Middleweight Championship[/ame] [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ONP6YQP-HE&feature=related]Lightweight Championship[/ame] Ruben Ortiz is trained by Jesse Marez, a coach under Hatmaker and occational training partner of m'self. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnkZuV2PKB4&feature=related]Women's Match[/ame] [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWaeqALisbI&feature=user]Heavyweight Championship[/ame] Jesse's the ref for this match.
correcting some misperceptions about Tony Cecchine For those of you who still might be reading this, please allow me to correct a number of factual errors. Of steve and I, only one of us has ever had a hold put on him by Tony Cecchine, or visited his gym just outside Chicago, or been to his house, or fed gyro meat to his dog. And it isn't steve. Which means that I find myself obligated to address some of the things that have been both asked and asserted on this thread. First, anyone who has reviewed his "Lost Art of Hooking" (LAOH) series will know straightaway that, first and foremost, Tony Cecchine preaches the importance of basic wrestling fundamentals and controlling the opponent. Submissions are secondary. As a member of his private forum, I can attest that Tony has little interest in teaching submissions to people who have not first turned themselves into solid wrestlers. But don't believe me. Listen to Tony himself: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERjemsF9ZUM"]Tony himself[/ame]. And note the date of this particular clip, too (1999), because such will be important to keep in mind as we navigate through the series of truly baffling assertions and suggestions offered us in this thread by steve -- the first of which is that he claims to have seen most of the catch wrestling videos floating around (Cecchine's is by far the most prominent), and yet he notes that these videos "only show the submissions and most often show them without the correct leverage or add in fluff techniques... catch wrestling is a form of wrestling that is not like free style or greco roman... it is its own thing.... you can not learn catch from video... it requires direct instruction..." Leaving aside for the moment the curious fact that for someone who claims you can't learn catch from videos, steve lays claim to having watched nearly all of them, let me say again that anyone familiar with LAOH or the Cecchine seminar tapes that predate even that series knows that, when Cecchine does teach submission holds, the bulk of what he addresses is the misapplication of such holds (for instance, here... [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fihKRt5vR6g&feature=related"]here[/ame] and here...) [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rslTCq5gGA"]here[/ame] What makes Tony's stuff different from other submission instructionals, in fact, is precisely this attention to detail: the twisting of the arm to curtail muscling out, the tightening up of open space, the constant application of body weight and proper leveraging, etc. All of which suggests that steve either hasn't viewed the videos, or else has completely missed the thrust of the instruction offered on them. And of course, no where does Cecchine ever claim that one can master catch wrestling solely by watching videotapes (though one of his forum members recently won a submission tourny in Hawaii having done nothing but studied Tony's tapes and practiced them in his garage with his buddies); which is why he offers training both through an online program and at his gym. And unlike other "certification" programs, Cecchine's is no diploma mill -- nor does it last two days and culminate in a "Level One Certification." To date, he's certified only one non-Chicago student in catch wrestling, and one in fitness. Which is pretty exclusive, given that he's been training people for over a decade now. Now, to the meat and potatoes of steve's claims. First, steve notes that he's trained with Billy Wicks, an old school wrestler who Tony does, in fact, know. They were introduced in 2000/2001 by Army Maguire (who steve mentions) -- at least 2 years after Tony has put out his catch seminar video, and a year + after he put out LAOH. Once again, anyone familiar with LAOH knows that Cecchine is teaching double wrist locks, key locks, etc., long before he'd ever even met Billy Wicks. Making steve's claim -- to review, steve writes, "I can vouch that Tony Checcine did train with Billy Wicks over one or two weekends and picked up his key lock stuff from Billy Wicks..." -- either completely misinformed, or else governed by the kind of quantum physics that makes time travel possible. Tony Cecchine, though, has never gone through a worm hole in the space time continuum (at least, not that he's ever copped to), meaning that he clearly knew key locks / short arm scissors "and associated techniques" long before he met Billy Wicks. And there is ample published video material to substantiate that fact -- along with some old VHS material (from 1996) that I have personally seen that makes this suggestion even more baffling. And, too, for someone preaching the importance of wrestling basics, note that steve never mentions anything taught him by Wicks other than submissions. steve is right about one thing, though: lineages seem to matter to those interested in catch wrestling. Having spoken to Tony about Wicks, I can say on his behalf that he liked Billy as a person, but thought very little of him as a wrestler. In fact, he thought that pro wrestlers like Wicks -- who engaged in worked matches -- have gone a long way toward hurting catch wrestling. According to Cecchine, Wicks was not at all versed in the top wristlock, stopper (fig-4) toe hold, front choke hold, short leg scissior, shin lock, high crotch, salto, penetration step, granby roll, and a whole host of other techniques. Consequently, when Mr Wicks visited for a seminar, no one was terribly impressed with him other than for the fact that he was a nice guy. All Mr Wicks cared about (according to Tony and those who attended the seminar) was the ball and chain ride. He didn't even know a straight arm bar. And it is on this kind of "lineage" that steve is laying claim to being a "real" catch wrestler? Incidentally, Tony did videotape that seminar. And he has never released those tapes for fear of hurting Mr Wicks' reputation. But now that Billy Wicks has seen fit to try to indict Cecchine as some sort of dubious practitioner of catch wrestling, I wouldn't be surprised if those tapes surfaced. For those who don't already know this, here are a few important pieces of information to keep in mind: in 1993, Cecchine became ill with something roughly resembling a stroke. This left him paralyzed on his right side for nearly two years. It wasn't until 1995 he could even walk again without the aid of crutches. To rehab, Tony began serious weight training with a man who offered to help him (and who, to this day, is Tony's closest friend; I had the privilege of meeting him and spending time with he and his family, and I watched him, at 61-years of age, move 200 lbs 10x on a grip machine. Quite an extraordinary guy). In 1996, Tony shot a VHS video audition for UFC and Pancrase. On that tape, he showed keylocks, double wrist locks, all sorts of leg locks, arm bars -- you name it. Which means that he either learned hooking while trying to relearn walking (most physical therapists, I dare say, would frown upon having a partially paralyzed patient practicing snap downs into the double wrist lock), or else he knew the material in advance of 1993, just as he's always claimed. Putting us now a full 7-8 years before Tony had Mr Wicks out for one or two weekend seminars. Did Tony manage to go back in time with the knowledge steve says he picked up from Wicks and make those old videotapes using principles of theoretical waveform mechanics? Or is it more likely that Wicks didn't teach Cecchine anything? I'll leave that for you budding scientists to determine, though I know what William of Occam would say... Finally, steve gives a list of instructors he can recommend, one of whom (Mr Maguire) I've already mentioned. Let me speak about a few others. First, John Strickland -- who trained with Cecchine (a fact that goes unmentioned); second, Johnny Huskey, another one of Wicks' students who Tony knows rather well. And here is why: As a favor to both Mr Wicks and Mr Huskey, Tony contacted Phyllis Lee and got Mr Huskey a Pancrase "B" match. Huskey lasted less than 2 minutes before being tapped out with a top wrist lock (least, I think it was a TWL. I only saw the tape once, so I may be wrong about the particular hold). As Tony tells the story, Ms Lee was not happy with Huskey's performance -- she had thrown him in with a fish -- and thus Cecchine, who had gotten Huskey the fight, felt a bit embarrassed by the whole thing. So there you have it. For all this talk about "lineages" and "real" catch wrestling, steve has based his entire review of Cecchine on a few stories from Billy Wicks. What he clearly hasn't ever done is train with Tony, contact him personally to verify any of the allegations he is trying to pass off as fact, or even bothered to watch his videos. Wicks, incidentally, now aligns himself with Jake Shannon -- about whom more in a moment. So by steve's own standards, he should be critical of his own mentor for aligning himself with a guy like Shannon, who is clearly out to make money from catch. Similarly, he should be bashing Fujiwara, Paulson, Josh Barnett, etc -- each of whom has put out instructional videos for purposes of making money. It is unclear to me why steve believes that selling videos is somehow untoward -- as if making money from being one of the few people alive who know an art form is somehow beyond the pale. But that aside, Tony never charged a penny to his regular students in Chicago -- and the one seminar that Jake Shannon attended in Chicago, he, too, wasn't charged one red cent. And yet he left that seminar, returned to California, and began trying to charge people $150.00 an hour for lessons. Based on one day's worth of training. Shannon, to be clear, was never Tony's "student." And, like steve has done here, he has subsequently attached himself to personalities (including Wicks, Barnett, and Paulson) -- all while sanctimoniously decrying the ethics of those who attach themselves to known commodities for purposes of legitimacy. If asked, Tony will discuss his "lineage" -- he trained for 5 years with Stanley Radwan, who died several years back, and whose obituary is readily available to those who wish to peruse the archives of the Cleveland Plain Dealer. He was friends with Lou Thesz and his wife, Charlie, whose home in Orlando he stayed at, and with whom he was in constant contact from the time the two met (through Matt Furey) in '98 until Lou's death nearly 5 years later. But unlike most people who've met a hooking legend (and Mr Wicks, incidentally, is nothing of the sort), Tony has never claimed that Lou Thesz "trained" him. In fact, Thesz thought of Tony as an equal, and the extent of their interaction over catch qua catch was Lou's discussing with Tony certain ways to enter into holds, etc. Early editions of LAOH contain an interview with Thesz in which he calls Tony one of only 4 living hookers: Thesz, Karl Gotch, and Billy Robinson being the other three. Notably, Matt Furey isn't mentioned. And Cecchine and Thesz remained friends for those 5 years until Lou's death -- without once putting out a tape, running a seminar together, appearing on TV or in a magazine, etc. (That interview was subsequently removed because it featured clips of Lou in Japan that Paul Viele, the set's producer, didn't have the right to). If Tony was interested in "using" a poor duped Thesz (who, one would think, could recognize a guy who knew the material), where are the seminar tapes? The photo ops? Jake Shannon puts out videos of Billy Robinson; Tony had an opportunity to profit from his relationship with Lou Thesz and never did so. Why? Because they were friends. And that was it. Thesz once called Tony Cecchine the Ghost of George Tragos. High praise indeed. Meanwhile, Billy Wicks was a regional fighter doing worked matches -- a guy who now makes a living based almost entirely on being one of the last living carny wrestlers. steve writes, "to answer the questions at hand... Do I think Tony C learned what Billy Wicks taught him during their time together... well I do know that Tony C video taped the training so he could certainly review it later... so in terms of physical skills, he probably did pick them up... I know that Billy Wicks taught him keylock short arm scissors and associated techniques during their time together... I also remember Billy Wicks felt like no one at Tony C's wanted to listen to him so much of what he taught fell on deaf ears. I can tell you from first hand experience that Billy Wicks will teach you a lot of stuff right from the start but will only teach you the underlying secrets after you prove yourself and show him that you repect him and the art." Well, to answer "the questions at hand" more thoroughly and fairly, let's review: 1) Cecchine has widely disseminated and readily available video showing the moves he supposedly learned from Wicks that date back 4 years before he met Mr Wicks (and, given his intervening health crisis, strongly suggest that he knows the techniques at least 7 years before he meets Wicks). 2) Tony does videotape his seminars, and he has the video of the seminars in which Mr Wicks participated. He doesn't deny that. But out of respect to Wicks, he has held back on releasing any of that material, because it makes Mr Wicks look completely out of his depth. His own material, however, is available for review. 3) No one at Cecchine's "wanted to listen to" Mr Wicks -- and "so much of what he taught fell on deaf ears" -- because the feeling among those at the seminars was that Wicks wasn't teaching anything useful. Which is not to denigrate Mr Wicks as a person; but rather only to suggest that his wrestling wasn't really up to snuff. Go through steve's posts again. For all his talk of the importance of knowing the basics, all he points to, when referring to what Mr Wicks teaches, is submissions. Whereas I have pointed you to video of Cecchine preaching the very things steve claims are important for keeping the art alive. Which begs the question: who is really doing more to hurt the art? Finally, Jake Shannon likes to point to what he calls the "infamous Gotch tape" -- a tape he suggests shows that Cecchine didn't know hooking leading up to LAOH. But what that clip shows is a portion of a nearly 2 hour tape in which Cecchine strung together submissions from various disciplines to show that he had a working knowledge of how those submissions were used and taught in the competing disciplines. The tape was NOT an instructional video. It was a showcase video detailing the extent of Tony's knowledge of catch's influence on various arts, and (perhaps) vice versa. Had Shannon ever asked Tony about this tape, he would have had an answer to his question. But of course, Shannon had no interest in an answer -- rather, he wished only to suggest that Tony was somehow hiding something. Which was never the case. Both Lou Thesz and Karl Gotch, incidentally, were very appreciative of that particular tape, having seen it in its entirety and having understood it in the proper context. In fact, Gotch's only complaint about the tape was that the partners Tony used looked out of shape (par for the course for Mr Gotch, who was a stickler for conditioning). Mr Shannon at one time publicly questioned the very existence of Stanley Radwan. This, despite having seen the obituary while visiting Tony in Chicago and staying over night in his house. Shannon also heard stories of Tony training with Radwan from Tony's mother, an in-home caregiver who we must now believe is part of Cecchine's elaborate conspiracy. Which is why subsequently, Shannon has had to change his "concern" over Mr Cecchine's training to the lack of proof that Radwan ever knew hooking. But of course, this is asking Cecchine to prove a negative; because the proof is Mr Cecchine himself -- and once you question how or where he learned his hooking skills, you've succeeded in switching the burden of proof on to him to somehow provide additional evidence of Radwan's skills. Well, I say that it is high time that question be reversed. If Shannon doesn't believe Tony learned his hooking skills from Radwan -- and I can now show that he knew those skills as early as 1993 -- where did he get them from? Shannon has suggested Cecchine picked them up from Fujiwara tapes (released in Japan circa 1994; not sure when they were made available in the US). Tony will tell you he has only seen bits and pieces of those tapes (he never owned a set), and only after he'd made some of his own tapes. But as steve helpfully reminds us, you can't learn catch wrestling from watching videos. And as Josh Barnett has publicly stated, Tony's techniques are completely different from Fujiwara's. And Barnett would know. Because not only has he publicly praised Cecchine's LAOH, but he has, in addition, trained a bit with both Fujiwara and Billy Robinson. So there you have it. A more complete accounting of the "personalities" involved. It bears mentioning that, were you to search the web, you won't find Tony Cecchine out there on forums making the kinds of claims about others that steve or Jake Shannon or Glenn Ortiz, to name but a few, have made about him. That's not his style. So yes, the empty drum makes the most noise. And right about know, I hope it is obvious to you that steve, Shannon, et al, are the Buddy Rich-es of the catch world. I hope this clears up some of the misconceptions about Tony Cecchine. You are, of course, free to email me (or even Tony) if you have further questions. I contacted steve this morning and provided him with Cecchine's email address. I eagerly await his contacting Tony, and then coming back here to report on the conversation. regards, JeffG Colorado
