The problem is that this assumes that Marriage is only a JudeoChristianMuslim institution. It isn't. The idea of marriage can be found in the vast majority of cultures out there (including those that were relatively untouched for centuries by Biblical influences). So basing the counter argument on the bible doesn't work unless you are discounting countless millions of marriages that had nothing to do with those institutions. - Matt
Obviously you don't know what you are talking about then. Homosexuality whether condoned or not has been practiced in numerous asian cultures for centuries (including Japan). We have historically dated accounts and illustrations of it. Often cultural rules were in place that allowed for it (temporarily shifting the gender of the receiver [sorry to be graphic] to female based on the binary opposition of penetrator : penetrated :: male : female). Beyond that as you move into smaller island cultures you'll find it there as well. BTW, it was also accepted in anchient western cultures like Greece and Rome which also had marriage institutions prior to the arrival of Christianity. Now Gay marriage only occured in a handful of these cultures. However, in most cultures marriage was solely practiced for reproduction. So feel free to invalidate all the childless unions out there if you want to go down that thread. - Matt
While there were Jews in Greece and Rome (and later Christians in the latter), Judism wasn't the predominant religion in either area. They already had their own cultures and practices and idigineous belief systems. - Matt
All the religions of the world can be traced back to Stone Age belief systems, and in some way trace their roots back to the very beginning of time in both the east and the west. The oldest known actual scripture to any extent for Judeo/Christianity is about 100 to maybe 300 BC. This can be traced back to about 600 to 800 BC, but beyond that we have only Babylonian, Egyptian writings which reflect older religious beliefs.
And I agreed that is is an older documented religion, as Shuny backs up. But I'm not quite sure your point beyond that. Are you suggesting that the Greek belief system is descendant from Judism? Because that's a pretty unsubstantiatable claim (correct me if I'm off Shuny). Just because these can be traced back to Stone Age beliefs, we can't assume that they all can be traced back to a single lineage or point of origin. At some point we need to account for regional change creating new lines of thought. - Matt
I am not as well informed as you all in history, but just because ancient civilizations practiced homosexuality are we then to assume that it is moraly right and OK? I mean ancient civilizations also practiced child sacrifice, does that mean that should be OK now as well? I think it is dangerous to try to justify a present social "norm" with a past civilization. I see that going south quickly. And as far a civilizations, should we not learn from the past. The civilizations being refrenced are no longer in existance, perhaps partly because of moral deterioration. Just a thought.
So, what else do we get rid of, meg? These cultures gave us some of the greatest philosophy, art, literature, and science that we know of! Our entire system of government is based, in part, on what we got from the ancient Greeks and Romans. These were hardly morally bankrupt cultures; they were driven down, if you read your history books, by morally bankrupt leaders. And, please, by the way, don't make outrageous claims about ancient Greek and Roman religion such as "they practiced child sacrifice". They did no such thing. As a matter fo fact, andcient Greek religion, and to a lesser extent, Roman, were civic religions where one not only strived to be the person one could be, but also the best citizen! They valued things like xenia (hospitality), philanthropia (philanthropy), charity, time` and agon (pride and shame), and many other values which modern Americans still repsect and value! Hardly morally bankrupt.
Greek religion as we are speaking of it, meaning the Parthenon, the Pantheon of the Twleve Gods of Olympos, etc., is really a gestalt of ancient Greek folk religion, such as local spirit worship, with some Near East influences; almost every major deity in the pantheon has roots in a near eastern deity, especially Aphrodite and Dionysos. There is also some influence from the Minoans, but how much is unclear due to the fact we simply don't have the historical records we do for the Greeks and the Romans. And of course, there is a huge culturla influence to be accounted for; for example, Ares reflects the Greeks dislike of war (He's a barbarian in Greek religion), while Mars, His Roman counterpart, is more civilized and noble, along the Roman line of thought about War. And we also need to keep in mind that each God was worshiped differently depending on the region; while values may have been relatively uniform in Athens, they did not necessarily reflect popular thought in Sparta or Thrace. Each city state had their own culturally-influenced versio of each God; Arcadia, for example, worshiped Apollon in His more lupine (wolfish) aspect, while the Athenians leaned more toward a different aspect. Most of this info can be found in books such as Walter Burket's "Greek Religion", Drew Campbell's "Old Stones, New Temples", Mikalson's "Athenian Popular Religion", "Handbook to Life in Ancient Greece" by Adkins and Adkins.
I never said I was specifically talking about Greek and Roman civilizations when I talked of child sacrifice. I was speaking of older civilizations then Roman and Greek (Babylonian). I agree that we can't throw out the baby with the bath water. We have gleaned many possitive things from ancient civilizations, but you must agree that the potential to glean negative things from them is just as possible. You speak of Greece and Rome as if they were the ideal. Please, their socio economic problems dwarf ours. It was a society of have's and have not's (truely). They watched people be eaten by lions for sport. Yes, there was good, but yes there was an awfull lot of bad as well. The moral problems of Rome are well documented, and the downward spiral led to thier demise. I am not specifically talking of homosexuality here, I am speaking about the moral decay in all areas of Roman civilization.
The problem with your denial, meg is that you're making it in a thread currently dealing with homosexuality. And I never said Greece or Rome were meccas, else "The Republic" would never have been written. The point, however, is that they were not as morally bankrupt as some would like to think. For your assertions on Rome and Babylon, sources, please.
My only issue in pointing all of this out is that comments like: "Marriage was meant to be between a man and a woman." "Homosexuality was never historically tolerated." etc. Are all derived from a Judeo/Christian/Mulsim tradition that does not account for what was going on in the rest of the world and/or history. Morality and value systems are quite transitory. Trying to claim otherwise is shoddy reasoning. Now to MegK's point, this is not to either reify or disparrage these systems. Rather its simply to point out that if you are playing a moral card, don't attempt to justify it by syaing this is the way it's always been. - Matt
Baikaiguy, I will refrence you my sources when I get home, I promise. I am at work and have none of my texts with me. And please let me reiderate that I never stated that homosexuality was not tolerated in other societies. I know better. I am just saying that we can not determine it's worth in our society simple by stating that it happened in other societies.
Just as it would be equally foolhardy to judge it's "worth" based on an ancient religious text and then go and seek evidence from modern sources to support such theories.
:bang: Why do you have to be this way, Meg K.? :bang: Every word out of your mouth is so hurtful, you have no idea. You know how some conservative Christians say, "I'm okay with homosexuality, I just don't want it flaunted in my face." Well, I'm okay with your extreme prejudice, just don't flaunt it in MY face. Jesus did not teach tolerance, he taught LOVE. And I've got news for you, it's impossible to "love the sinner and hate the sin." In this particular case, they are the one and the same. I can think of another Christian society that practiced legal discrimination towards homosexuals, perhaps we should base our society upon it - Nazi Germany!
Let it be known that I wind up defending Christianity to friends etc. all the time, as Jesus' teachings are spot on ( as where the Buddha's etc.) However, arguments like this make me want to just curl up and die! You wonder why Christians are misunderstood? Try being told all the time that you are unfit to be a part of a moral society, even though you strive to live your life being as kind and loving as possible to others and the world around you. Then you'll understand.
