TOG TKD

Anthro class popped up a multiple attacker vid in Peru and, well, I couldn't stay away

 

Yes I did...
And it may not be explicitly stated but it seems to be implicitly accepted.

 

The emphasis on kicking techniques is basically just what makes TKD "not karate" and I really believe that's why it has evolved the way that it has, and not because there's a true belief that kicking techniques are superior.

 

You seem to be missing the point so I will try another track. You are a BJJ school. You feel like your throws are weak. You train with experts in Judo and they teach you the skills you need to improve your throwing.

So you incorporate it into your curriculum. Hey guys. We're going to throw and throw and throw and throw. We're going to throw so much we'll be as good as any Judoka.

And you do it. Congratulations. But you notice something. Now your schools groundwork isn't as strong as it was before you started focusing on the standup. Why? Because there are limited training hours and this huge tent of skills.

Yes a TKD school should try to incorporate other elements into their training. But not to the point where their core (karate base) starts to be compromised.

 

a. I do train them!
b. Just cos another school doesnt.. it doesnt make them NOT part of the system.. it makes that school not teaching the full system!
c. Krabi Krabong is still Muay Thai to me
d. Judo has a punching kata too

Stuart

 

Lets go back and read the first page and initial responses. They were all stating that the OP does not know enough about TKD and 'original TKD' contains everything, knees; elbows ,hands etc. Do I imagine those posts?
This is a true statement. But in misinterpretes the d epth of knowlegde so its not as a true a statement as it seems. Thats my point that in a round about way everyone agress on but iscoming up with excuses as to why its standard is so low.

 

Not had quality training in TKD place or seen it from ANY TKD ,GUY ANYWHERE who has not gone and trained in boxing. Am I wrong? Show me.

Bitter and twisted? Desperate or what. Lets keep it to well thought out discussion or theres no point.

 

By TKD schools in general and the rulesets and scoring I see used in competition. And not just that feet>hands but that high kicks are better than high kicks.

The point isn't the variety really. The point is what you put in bold, emphasis. Judo emphasizes tachiwaza. BJJ and kosen judo emphasize newaza. But that's still not the same as hands vs feet. One is generally more useful than the other in SD situations. It would be more like in BJJ groundwork training omoplatas more than armbars. Given what you put in bold wouldn't it be better to spend your time training higher percentage, more useful moves more than the others?

I use kicks, and I train kicks, however the kicks I train are all straight and pretty much all straight low kicks and I only really need two or three kicks. Why? Because in a SD situation if I have to kick I want it to be space efficient and for my foot to be off the ground for as short a period as possible and not easy to grab. Also I don't need to train very many kicks because hands will usually be more useful for many reasons.

a. You train punches than kicks? Good!
b. If it were a few isolated schools I would agree but since it doesn't seem to be That leaves you with "almost everyone is doing TKD wrong."
c. I think you'd agree that there's a difference between muay boran and muay thai.
d. That I know but just because they have a kata for it doesn't mean that it's part of the system. I don't think anyone would call judoka punchers or say that they generally practice punching.

 

Why the oppsession with the point about boxing?
That just hiding behind the whole point that every area TKD claims it covers does not go to the depths that avoids it being critisised. MT hands are miles about TKD hands. If you think good boxing fundamentals are in anyway laid out in the TKD curriculum or in the encyclopedia then you dont know boxing fundamentals.
Plus you say you learnt boxing from an amature...so you learnt it seperatly right? I dont get why then you make a thing about it being there already or why go against my point.
He ill Choi learned boxing seperate early on...so thats not from TKD.

I see people agreeing on the one hand but then making excuses as to why the standard is low.

 

Agree

Disagree. I have seen many like this loose.

Nope

 

Well here's an ITF guy who transitioned into MMA. His standup is CLEARLY ITF-style punching, which are usually rapid-fire and straight down the pipe. We will probably both agree that his punching isn't up to the level of a boxer and you may not call it "sophisticated," but it's clearly effective when combined with his kicks.

He ended his career with a 15-10 record. Not a GREAT record, but a winning record, and it's important to point out that most of his losses came via submission and only 2 coming by KO.

Bottom line here is that I think this guy could hold his own in a self-defense situation with his straight-line power punches.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JRKeJprBxs"]Lukasz Jurkowski champion of TAEKWONDO ITF in vale tudo - YouTube[/ame]

I believe I actually said "bitter TKDist."

And I was just making the point that just because you didn't get good training in hand techniques--if that is the case--doesn't mean that no schools are teaching them properly.

I've spent time at some pretty sucky martial arts schools, including a terrible ITF school, which is why I'm no longer involved with the ITF. But I don't blame the whole system for that. In fact, I would love to find a good ITF dojang and would even be willing to get over the stupidity of sine wave for it, but around these parts that's just too much to ask.

 

He is correct here. Let's keep the personal insults out of it. We should be able to discuss this calmly. If we've exhausted the discussion at some point let's just agree to disagree rather than descend into pages of calling each other douchebags as a last result...

 

You are only refering to SD. TKD schools train the technqiues that are (in many ways) more useful to them... grading technqiues, competition techniques etc. They may not all be useful for SD, but they are probibly used more often than any SD only stuff in the course of ones TKD lifetime!

I actually agree with this point... why? because its how YOU see things and how YOU want things. Its what you feel are teh required training elements for how you see SD.. thats a fine and valid point. BUT... a TKD school (or in fact the system itself) doesnt have the same option of picking bits out. Most schools have to focus on a) the core/grading syllabus b) the competition elements and c) other ares the instructor feels is useful.. this can be anything SD related, more throws, joint locks etc. For someone who wants just SD realted stuff, maybe a & b seem like a waste of time, but for someone who wants to focus on competitons, then perhaps a & c seem liek a waste of time. I very much doubt that if you joined a BJJ school, then said, "well, i dont really wanna roll on the ground too much, as its a bad place to be in SD", they'd embrace your philosophy with open arms! In short - personal training and s chool/system training differs quite a bit on what needs to be done.

I wouldnt say wrong, I`d say not as completely as they really should! Then I`d blame all the big orgs lol

LOL.. I`ll concede that one to you.

Hmmmmm.... I think it does!

Agreed. But, punching is still a part of the system and 'supposed' to be learned!

Stuart

 

No obsession.. just felt it was a hypercritical point is all!

That goes to what Mitch said... the level of quailty of the thus discussed technqiues is not the same as claiming they are/are not within the system. They are two different discussions. I came a cross a TKD instructor once, and his kicking ability was, er, limited shall we say... yet his throws were as good as most Judoka I`ve seen... yet he was a TKD guy.. go figure!

I would say it depends on who's hands you are comparing... but as a general thing, I`d agree, but also feel that TKD in general can still provide a decent level of hand skills that are valuable to a street encounter.

Hmmmm... suggest you re-read my other post - I agreed with you there!

No... he was a TKD 2nd Dan who covered my instructor when he twisted his knee once and was off for months & months (actually). I only found out later his hands were so good cos he was also an amature boxer. That said, my own instructors 'hands' wernt bad - his were just better - obviously, plus he liked to focus a lot of time on them as well (his choice as an instructor and one, I think the class benefitted from).

Again.. please read my posts properly.. as I again agreed with you and now your saying I didnt and thus, it does/may look as one poster said, that you seem to be making arguments for arguments sake!

I for one, do not like how Western Boxing sort of slipped into the system, but isnt acknowledge.. I think it should be! I, for one do acknowledge it within my class.

Stuart

 

Agreed.

I will say this however, its funny but those that seem to berate TKD are sort of like ex-smokers.. you know, the ones who become the most indignant when someone else lights up near them.. non-smokers don't seem to react in the same way.. and so it seems the same with many an ex-TKDer.. its always ex-TKD'ers on the TKD forums spreading the gospel about how poor it is!!
Just thought that was an interesting thang!

Stuart

 

I will say straight out that TKD is a complete MA!

Now we would first have to define TKD. Then we would have to define complete & finally define MA.

So to me I am referring to ITF TKD or the 1st KMA system to be labeled TKD. This label was devised in the ROK Army & used by soldiers training in the OhDoKwan, the military gym. The purpose was 2 fold:
1- SD
2- Build spirit among the soldiers
Some call this Chang Hon style TKD, Military or Original TKD or Gen. Choi's TKD.
To me complete means covers or includes everything.
A MA is a pursuit of attributes & traits through intensive physical training designed to build a better & holistic person who therefore will be a better & more productive member of society.

TKD was initially developed & named in the Korean military for SD. As it moved to the civilian side, the spirit building that was previously used for the soldiers was now used to make better citizens with the stated purpose of building a more peaceful world. So the SD aspect was the biggest part of the physical training, which was also used to build a better citizen who would contribute to making a better world that was more peaceful.
However when tournaments became the focus, the SD aspect seems to have suffered varying degrees of displacement.
Since TKD has also become a way for instructors to make a living, completeness is naturally lost, as not everything can be covered all the time in class & aspects that affect retention in a negative way are dropped or minimized or made so soft to render them useless, especially in a SD capacity. So naturally we see completeness suffering for many reasons. Couple that with successive generations of watered down training & testing, you now have many incomplete instructors.

So while I say that Original TKD is a complete MA, remember first that a MA has other goals besides SD. In process of trying to implement it or train it in a commercial setting, one simply can not "completely" be complete in the training.

However I would say that IF the focus of one's physical training is SD, one can not help but be better able to defend themselves or others, if their training is realistic. So if you drop the tournament focus & go with no rules sparring in your training & use as realistic conditions as possible, given obvious safety conditions, you magically see Original TKD morph into a MMA. I came to this by following them instructions in Gen. Choi's teachings & writings, ie the 15 volume Encyclopedia of TKD.
Mr. Anslow apparently came to it more naturally from his focus on SD. When one thinks about it, it is pretty easy to see. Take away the rules & anything goes, which is another way of saying no rules. With no rules & a focus on SD, one will use what works & train for more situations, like on the ground.
When we do free sparring, ie FREE to use all available means to attack & defend, people can get confused on what we are, judo, boxing, tkd, MMA etc. If there is a weakness, why not seek more expert help in the area, like bring in a Judoka to help out? Some may call that cross training. I just look at it as supplementing a weak area of TKD that lost its focus over the years, as Judo, along with other fighting systems were already incorporated into military or original TKD by the Korean soldiers who initially created TKD.