TOG TKD

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Sketco, Jan 11, 2012.

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  1. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

  2. TaekwonPRO

    TaekwonPRO Valued Member

    There is little doubt to their realism, but that desk scene was dangerous.
     
  3. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Yup.. for sure!

    Stuart
     
  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    You found something awful IMHO.
    Not a good example of padwork AT ALL.
    If it was for "sport" it needs to be much more mobile, moving around, defending shots, etc. Some follow through and intent would be nice too.
    If it was for SD purposes then the moving around is not so important but the intent and ferocity certainly is. :)
    It was basically a bloke slapping another blokes fists with some paddles. I do hope that wasn't an attempt at demonstrating that TKD is "more than just kicking"?
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2012
  5. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    Ferocious like this? I mean the first 3/4 of the vid looks like pretty lazy bag work to me and yet would you denigrate Pac's boxing skills?


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAdeWxeqGa8"]Manny Pacquiao - Thunder and Lightening on the Heavy Bag - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2012
  6. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    For a start that's not "SD" bagwork is it?
    Which is what my "ferocity" comment was about.

    Plus I didn't really denigrate the skills in the TKD punching paddle-work. Merely the format of the "drill" and that it didn't actually provide evidence that TKD promotes skill in areas other than kicking.
    You're clutching at straws I think. If the best you can do is find a clip of pac-man not quite giving 100% (whilst still displaying great flow, smooth combinations, awesome movement round the bag, explosiveness etc etc) then I don't think you have much.
     
  7. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    I guess my reaction is due to the fact that it just sounds like typical hater talk to me.

    The guy may not have been overly aggressive, but that wasn't the point I got from the video anyway. My impression was that he was working his accuracy and he seemed to be on target for the most part. Not only that, but he was throwing combos and showed a knowledge of jabs, crosses and uppercuts. And he was working pretty fast.

    He was also probably limited as far as exerting power due to the target. Like Stuart said, some focus mitts would've been nice. Kind of hard to blast those paddles and not lose your rhythm.
     
  8. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    No distinction needs to be made.
    Would a person training in TKD be better off training outside of TKD to enhance his skills where its lacking in TKD? Thats the distinction. The simple answer is yes.

    When someone makes a legitimate observation about TKD and where it lacks the responses are useualy like all those in these posts which claim TKD trains all these areas, which is a misinterpretaion. Why people can not just say '' You are correct , its a good idea to train those areas with an expert'' is a mystery.

    In my view a big reason is because high grades will not go and be beginners again and are not willing to lose and learn.
     
  9. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    Thats incorrect by my reasoning.
    There are a few reasons.
    People do not go onto MT forums or critisice its use of hands for a start. Also it does not hide its boxing influence at all. It is honest in its influence. Its used boxing fundamentals and training ideas and adapted them to MT.

    If someone critisiced its groundfighting and then someone said MT has it, its just not many people realise or train it, then it would be open to scrutiny and wouldget the same treatment that TKD gets with its claims.

    The other thing to realise is that its the fundamentals of boxing and training ideas that are the key. MT guys have those but adapt them to MT so it does not look like they have as good hands as a boxer when they fight MT but that because they would get knocked out if they blatently boxed. You have short cuts under MT rules that cut out some of the things you can do in boxing because of the rules. To cut them out you would still be better off knowing them

    Its not about 'learning to box'' to be like a boxer its about incorporating the science into however you want to fight or into SD. That is a huge point to get.

    I totaly agree in the honesty about Judo. There needs to be more of that.
     
  10. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    You're making the discussion about something it's not even about.

    The thread is about TKD's supposed over-dependence on kicks and whether or not this dependence makes it an impractical martial art for self-defense. If you're not aware of this, then feel free to start back over on page 1.

    I made the point that, at least in regard to competition TKD (which is what many schools focus on exclusively), this may be true for WTF TKD because in WTF competition punches are all but useless, so many schools don't spend a lot of time training them. However, in ITF TKD--which more closely resembles kickboxing and in which punches to the head are allowed--practitioners are far more likely to have legitimate punching ability, which will translate into self-defense application.

    The thread was never about whether or not boxing is better for punching skills than TKD; it was about whether or not TKD sufficiently teaches hand skills for self-defense. I said that, at least in regard to good ITF schools, yes, I believe they do.

    And you're going to say "no distinction needs to be made"? Are you trolling?
     
  11. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag New Member Supporter

    Not sure what you are looking for here. Does TKD have weaknesses? Does it have focused areas of training. Simple answer: Yes.

    But most arts have some form of specialization. I have met BJJ practitioners at Sambo seminars who were there because they wanted to improve on their throws. One of them even said, "I don't want to rely on pulling guard anymore..."

    Why is this? Is it because BJJ has limitations? Is it because they have specialized training? Yes. I say this as someone who has been tapped out many times by people with a good guard game (why lie, by people with a mediocre guard game, ha ha) and believe they have brought a lot to the table for martial arts. Obviously it would be great to be strong in all areas. But the truth is that this is often impractical. Trying to improve your expertise in one area takes a lot of focus. Thus people specialize in an area of interest.

    TKD is no different. It has specialization. It benefits greatly from some cross-training with boxing. It also benefits from cross-training with a ground style.

    BUT there is a danger of cross-training too much (without the proper amount of time to focus on it properly). You don't want to show people a couple of submissions and say, "There. You're cross-trained..." It requires more than that for proficiency.

    Rather than try to teach them everything under the sun I usually do things like, "Look. You don't want to do that. Because if you do that against someone with this skill set they will do this...I don't care if that isn't allowed in the sparring rules, don't do that because it is a bad habit." This also works better because I don't happen to know everything under the sun, ha ha. :)
     
  12. TejasT

    TejasT Valued Member

    The truth is . . . in a real fight: it all comes down to the fighter, not the type of art he/she practices.

    In my experience, usually the meaner or more fit person wins a fight.

    It is quite simple.
     
  13. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    I forgott that one..the accusation of trolling to anyone making points about TKD. Thats tried and tested one. Give a few pages it will end someone will say '' but its just about having fun for some people''. Theres a few more cliques to come yet too, I bet.
    My point ,which im free to make in any discussion ,was that anyone who questions TKD on forums is not going to get far and all you get back is that everythings already in TKD etc etc. No one can handle the critism.
    If you look back the focus has been turned to boxing by you and others.
     
  14. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    I am not looking for anything. I am respondingto points.
    I guess I think its wrong and bull to misiterpret the depth of TKD to low grades or ayone which is what people do by saying it has all these areas and yet when you see it it is just a bodge job. Its not up to standard. Sorry. Not mine anyway. I aim to take mine to as better standard.No escuses.
    I also find it embarrasing as a TKD guy to see it.

    There is no danger in training with experts and taking the fundamentals and incorporating them..no danger what so ever unless they are not realy experts.
     
  15. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I think you're wildly overstating the case BL :)

    For example, nobody is saying you can't learn to punch better by going to a boxing gym. MT folk don't punch as well as boxers, nobody does, because that's the small subset they work within. What a number of people have said is that you can learn to punch well enough to get by.

    It's not to do with cliques or anything else. Nor is anybody claiming that "everything's already in TKD," you're overstating the case to create an opposition that just isn't there.

    I have no problem with criticism of common TKD training methods and curriculums. Lots are perfectly valid. I don't think that anyone would argue that TKD lacks groundwork of any worth for example.

    But you're making blanket statements that just aren't true and you're dealing just as much in broad accusations ("No one can handle the criticism") as anyone accusing you of trolling.

    Mitch
     
  16. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Spot on IMO. As long as the fundamental don't conflict with the principles of the original art, in this case TKD.

    Mitch
     
  17. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Seemed to fit the bill to me :)

    Hmmm... wonder why not if its not 100% Queensbury boxing stylee! Surely they should by your reasoning!

    Hmmm.. in all my years in martial arts, I have never heard anyone in MT give 'props' to the Marquess of Queensberry :) Seriously, I actually agree with you on this point, in regards to TKD Sparring - I acknowledge Western Boxing however! As does Hee Il Cho!

    Errr.. so does TKD.. for both sparring & SD! Though like I said, I have always been 'befuddled' as to not mentoning Western Boxing in Gen Choi's manuals etc., as its obvioulsy a big part of TKD comp sparring - though also in the manuals, it doesnt really mention competition at all - perhaps thats the reasoning (not that I agree, as it can be used for SD as well of course), and like I said, never heard a MT do the same either TBH.. but maybe thats just me!

    No. Thats a different senerio - BOTH arts use punching techniques based on Western Boxing... that was the point - you said its okay for one to be 'dissed' but not another, even though they are based on the same practice for the benefits of their art/style. You also originally said that NO boxing will ever be good enough without it been taught by a Pro-Boxer!! (BTW - I learnt my Boxing off an Amatuer Boxer.. does that count at all?)


    The same 'keys' that can be trained at a TKD class, as easily as a MT class!!

    LOL.. who's making excuses now.. What! They are good, but don't look good cos of the rules system.. is that what your saying... same brother!!!

    The same applies to TKD AFAIC

    And you think a TKDer can't 'get' that! LOL. I would figure most TKD guys have the same amount of comprehension as an MT guy!! Whether they choose to use it is another matter I guess!

    Its simply common sense to me - TKD does try to cover a lot of areas (if practiced fully) and its makes sense that certain areas may be addressed more and others less, but even if we try to balance it all, you can never spend enough time on some parts and a trip to someone who does them exclusively is more than worthwhile - but that doesnt negate the fact that the system includes them - its simply a fact that people cannot train like soldiers these days! So a TKD'er is right to say we include 'this and that', as its part of the Ch'ang Hon system.. even if they don't always meet the expectations of good folk like yourself... they are still there and part of the system!

    Stuart
     
  18. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    But the issue is more: is the idea that kicking should be focused on most more useful than emphasizing using the arms due to environmental constraints present in self defense.
    To that I say... no and that if the/a fundamental principle of TKD is that feet>hands then I'd say some re-evaluation is needed in that area.

    EDIT: and Stuart... if yo don't train them... they really aren't part of the system. Classical muay thai has things that modern muay thai doesn't You can say they're still part of the system but if you don't train them... nope.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2012
  19. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    Well when you make the statement that "no distinction needs to be made" between ITF and WTF TKD when they are very different styles and one--as a rule--places a much higher emphasis on hand attacks, then that sounds suspiciously like trolling to me. Or if you don't want to call it trolling, then you can call it simply being argumentative with no apparent spirit of being open to other viewpoints. To be honest, you sound like a bitter TKDist who has not had quality training in hand techniques in the schools that you have trained at, and you have just made up your mind that for that reason all TKD schools must suck in that regard.

    I used to be involved with ITF TKD and I firmly believe that the strength of your hand techniques is largely dependent upon the school. Some schools are quite good at teaching a person to defend themselves just with their hands, and again, this thread is about whether or not TKD teaches sufficient hand techniques for self-defense, not whether or not a TKDist can beat a boxer in a boxing match.

    Conversely, I just recently started courting a WTF school that I will probably be officially joining in a few hours. It's almost all kicking. But it's also very openly sport oriented, with little focus on self-defense. But I'm okay with that, because I'm also taking a wado-ryu karate class that has a strong emphasis on upper-body attacks. I believe they will compliment each other well.
     
  20. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    You sure weren't gone long.
     
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