Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Sketco, Jan 11, 2012.

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  1. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    My point is that you're making a strawman argument. Olympic TKD is a sport like any other sport. It has rules to achieve an end. Soccer is a different sport from basketball almost entirely due to the ruleset . . . both sports involve taking a ball and putting it into some sort of goal.

    Maybe it would be best for you to just pretend that the kicks in Olympic TKD aren't kicks. Call them "faloozles" instead. And the sport doesn't have its roots in a Korean martial art.

    Would you then be able to appreciate it just for what it is?

    Jiu-jitsu is a game even if you add in striking, just like MMA is a game. They ALL have rules.

    If you're training for SD, train with NO ruleset. The moment you add even a SINGLE rule and incorporate some sort of competitive structure, it's a sport.

    The ruleset of Olympic TKD is such that it would be differentiated from kickboxing and have its own identity. It also was designed to show off TKD's trademark kicks. It actually sounds pretty clever to me.

    Right, because every punch a boxer throws is a power shot and they never try to win on points. . .

    First off, I don't know what kind of jeans you wear, but I can throw any kind of kick you'd like to see in a pair of jeans. This isn't the 70s. My jeans aren't that tight.

    Second, I guess my real question is why are you picking on TKD? Why are you not starting the same kind of threads all around the forum? You seem obsessed with TKD's kick-centered fighting system, but again, boxers can't even defend a takedown. Not only that, you keep talking about enclosed spaces and the like. Well even a boxer needs a certain amount of distance to get his punches off. A judoka on the other hand can do his thing as soon as he gets his hands on you.

    So go on the boxing forum and start a thread about how their ruleset is too limited to deal with grapplers. Do the same thing for MT. Then go start a thread on the MMA board about how MMArtists are being set up to fail because MMA puts fighters in all kinds of positions where they'd be vulnerable to groin attacks and eye gouging.

    So if you're going to play this game, then fine, but carry the argument all the way to its logical conclusion and don't give anyone a free pass.

    Also, I'll point out that if you're going to make the point that a small, enclosed space favors a boxer or a TKDist, then a large open space favors someone who can both punch AND kick (as many TKDists, especially ITFers, are able to do). You may be able to make the argument that TKDists have less sophisticated punching abilities than a boxer, but boxers have NO kicking abilities whatsoever! And where are you more likely to run into a self-defense situation? On the street or in an elevator?
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2012
  2. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Sorry, I missed this earlier...

    Sorry.. that clip wasnt really geared towards you.. but please expand anyway, as in this case, I agree with you.. yet the clip still nullified another point made in this thread (though not by you).

    Hmmmm... what if a Judo guy gets into a scrap on a beach, to a guy with speedo's on... what Gi is he gonna grab... horses for courses, for every argument, theres a counter argument.. bottom line is.. beach, ice, topless.. a decent TKD guy can hit and grab, just like most other martial artists.. just like the Judo guy on the beach can kick the guy in the the nutz as his tai otoshi isnt gunna work this time!!!

    Last edited: Jan 20, 2012
  3. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    That's actually pretty interesting.

    I'm off to repost that vid on another forum. . .
  4. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    That was a good post, which I agree with mainly (hence my 'thanks', I disagree with this bit however:
    At our school, we do whats called 'traditional sparring'.. similar in nature to what SPX alludes too.. its limited rules, anything goes, with contact levels usually heavy.. but its not sport.. and that is because we don't have a winner and a loser, if someone gets put down, choked out etc. its taken as a learning experience and therefore, they actually become the winner in this case, as they have learnt something! Even though its basically anything goes, we have rules, but not 'scoring' type rules, but rules for some safety.. for example, if a headlock is on, a student isnt allowed to elbow strike to the spine, instead he`d simulate it by a tricep strike to the side (back).. sure, if he does this the other student may take advantage of it and create an escape.. but thats not the point.. the student is safe in the knowledge that he could have done it if he wished to.. so he has won too!

    To make things interesting, sometimes we do this in the dark, other times I`ll scatter obstacles on the floor and other times I`ll tell the students not to bother getting changed and to do it in whatever they came in with! Sadly, I cant reproduce ice, snow, blizzards, gales, slippery hillsides or steep mountain tops.. but we do the best we can! :hat:

    Who wins.. everyone.. cos its a learning experience!

  5. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Thats cool. The one I was looking for saw two boxers kick off, and look real scrappy rolling round on the floor!! Hardly the Boxing Perfection we are lead to beleive is the be all and end all for ALL punchers!!

    I thought it was Herbie Hide, but I may have been wrong! Either way, Im glad you liked it! ;)

  6. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    That's why I made to to include the bit about "competitive structure."

    BTW, how did you get involved in TKD out of curiosity? And is it the only martial art you do?

  7. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Yes, except that you said when you add rules, they make it competition like (what I took from you saying competitive structure).. all sparring is competitive to a degree, but competing to win, as opposed from 'to learn' is different. For example.. we have a similar rule to the UFC.. no eye gouges, except in our sparring you can simulate it by placing your thumbs on the eyes, even pressing in lightly.. you are just not allowed to follow through.. its the same rule as the UFC, but their rulling is to ensure its not done, as its unsafe, our ruling allows it, but in a safer way.. hence the mindset is different. Students at our club will usually acknowledge such a move and restart, in a sport bout it wouldnt be acknowledged at all!

    Simple. I got into Martial Arts when I was around 14, training with various people. When I was 19 or so I wanted to follow a more structure route, ie. join a proper club, grade etc. I looked at karate and kung fu clubs in my area, the former I thought were to rigid, the later I thought were to flowy.. I checked out some TKD clubs, didnt like the WTF one as it stuck the BB's on a pedastol (another story), like the ITF based one as the BB's looked.. well.. really good.. so joined.. job done.!

    Its what I consider my base art, but I consider myself a martial artists first and foremost and am happy (and enjoy) to learn off all arts, as I have done in the past and continue to do so.. its one of the reasons I started IAOMAS ( As a kup grade I trained along side a BB Shotokan fighter (for a good number of years), before that I had studied (in the past) Judo & Wing Chun to a point. Through IAOMAS (and other seminars) I have trained with and learnt aspects of Wing Chun, Jiu Jitsu, Hapkido, Sombo, BJJ, Thai Boxing, Kali, JKD, WTF TKD, Various Karate Systems (Shotokan, wado-Ryo, ****o-Ryo), Frestyle karate, Defendo, Tai Chi, Kung-Fu, Pananukan, Caperiora (amongst others), which I adapt what I feel is useful for our system or my students.. I have also studied Self protection (and trained with SP guys), as well as training with LEO's from the US military, police and prison system (and training some of them as well), as well as Combat instructors to the British Army! Though, like I said, TKD is my thang these days :)

    I suppose to some I`m seen as a bit of a pro-TKD guy (and weirdly enough to others as an anti-ITF guy), but really I just want TKD folk to see and use TKD as the art is should be.. no more, no less, but in saying that I`m not anti-other martial arts.. I have my 'personal views' on some etc., but I see value in all!

    In my years I`ve seen the good and the crap in most arts.. so I don't judge them, I just listen to the guys/gals that are good at them and learn/take from them! I`ve also seen most of the 'xxx don't work' arguments.. and know most of them can be disfuted by others that have made them work! Take Karate for example.. the OP says high kicks and turning kicks are useless on the streets... though Karateka Terry O'Neils history would disagree with that, as, as a doorman, he regularly KO'd people with head kicks.. and most of those were roundhouse kicks!!

    Me, I love martial arts - ALL of them - think we should all get along, learn from each other and be the martial artists we wanna be!

    Last edited: Jan 20, 2012
  8. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Boxing has grappling. :p Ok... ok... double legged flying kicks of the hoods of cars we don't exactly train for... call it creative license. :D

    I think Ali was clever in that... he knew if he tied him up that it'd get broken up. Classic boxing. If he wanted to go one step further he could have easily slapped the guillotine on him.
  9. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    I've done it before... at TKD... even to the blackbelts it seemed like nonsense.

  10. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    Ditto. And I like TKD for some things, and dislike it for others.

    Not entirely useless just not as useful. Function over form. Making it work is the point!
  11. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    The problem with some people is they tend to look at training methods and assume that's all an art entails. A system is what your fighting doctrine is based off of, while training methods are how you put that doctrine into practice. Just because something is not present in the system's competition side of things does not mean it's suddenly nonexistent.

    Here's a somewhat interesting video I stumbled across.

    [ame=""]Close Quarter Combat Taekwondo - YouTube[/ame]
  12. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag New Member Supporter

    That video was fairly scary. Grappling with furniture around? Do they not understand the concept of herniated discs and such? Unfortunately I know it too well.

    I get that they wanted to train in a scenario based environment, but that seemed as bit too much like paranoia training to me. Are they often choked from behind at school? Finding themselves in a road rage incident where they have to escape a car? And while I appreciate the intensity sometimes they were flailing around with furniture flying everywhere. There were times when a simple shrimp would allow one of them to pull guard, yet instead they'd roll around crashing through tables and chairs.

    I did like the disarming based training. Tat was pretty good.
  13. TaekwonPRO

    TaekwonPRO Valued Member

    I can do high roundkicks in my jeans. They're normal Levis.

    I wear boots that don't slip.

    I can punch

    Guess I'm good to go :happy:
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2012
  14. TaekwonPRO

    TaekwonPRO Valued Member

    Oh god, those desks must have hurt like a bitch.
  15. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    Hey, look what I found. . .

    [ame=""]Training punches in TAEKWONDO WTF - YouTube[/ame]
  16. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    That was very . . . interesting.
  17. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    I agree.

    As for the video, it doesnt seem like any TKD, or martial art in particular
  18. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Funny... cos I`ve never been to any TKD club that felt the same!!! Strange that! Are you refering to the BB's at the club, who as an 8 year old you made them look silly with your 'more hands than kicks' strategy.. now you know why lol

    You can do this in class.. its called 'restrictive sparring' - if SD was the main factor for you, then training for a comp with restrictive rules, takes a lot more of you time than being able to swap/change to the areas as you feel needs to be addressed - in class!!! Plus the rules themselves are further restrictive!

    Good. We do same with TKD comp only techniques :eek:

    Either you were at a pretty crappy club (no offence meant by this btw) or.. well, I cant really think of an 'or' actually, so I`ll have to go with the first. Especially in light of what you said earlier on the post! I do find it strange you equateing something that happened when you were 8, to how things really are though - TBH, niot that many 8 year olds are great kickers anyway, i have seen many comps where the bigger kids that cant kick well, just bull into them - this dioesnt work quite so well with decent teenage/adult TKDers and to use this as your premise of what works and what doesnt in SD, seems to make me think your not that much older now - meaning it looks like your a teenager - again, no offence meant, but that and having an answer for everything seems to imply that. Is that why you were unwilling to give your age!

    I think thats common sense in all circles of martial arts isnt it!

    No problem. Done it again here :)

    And the same doesnt apply to someone in TKD... why?

    Agreed. And isnt that the point of training entirely!!!! Not many technqiues work straight out the box.. thats the whole point of 'training' them :love:

    Last edited: Jan 22, 2012
  19. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    That means its fairly realistic then perhaps.. as most 'real' fights usually dont resemble a particular style of martial arts that much!

    Last edited: Jan 22, 2012
  20. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    opps-- double post - please delete mods
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