Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Sketco, Jan 11, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    We are talking about TKD though. The responses have been the usual '' TKD has all that'' which is a misinterpretation of the depth of knowledge of all those areas.
    MT people do not say they have groundfighting.. a boxer does not say he has kicks...If they did I would makethe same points to them.

    The thing about having no time is just an excuse. If TKD wants to suggest it has everything then it is open to scrutiny if it just looks like a bodge job.
    High grades need to just go and learn and put their egos aside and get beat again and be beginners.
    Those that dont ,bodge it together and make excuses IMO. The real issue is an unwillingnesss to lose IMO.
  2. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    I really think that we should make a distinction between WTF and ITF TKD. Since ITF (competition) sparring allows punches to the face, ITFers are a lot more likely to spend time developing that weapon. I mean, if you put footage from an ITF sparring competition next to an IKF light contact kickboxing match they would look very similar. So while I wouldn't expect a serious ITF competitor to have boxing skills as sophisticated as a boxer or MT guy, you're not giving credit where credit is due if you say they have no punching abilities. They are especially good at throwing straight-line punches right down the pipe.

    With the WTF, that's a whole other animal. Most schools train to the sparring rules, in which punches are essentially useless, so your point is more legitimate. But it's important to make the distinction.

    Get beat at what? Boxing?

    I think that plenty of TKDers train their hands enough to feel comfortable from a self-defense perspective and that is all they want in that regard. High-level punching skills are not necessary to win TKD matches so they're not worried about it from a competitive perspective.
  3. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    A MT club can say they have/use boxing though and by your reasoning, thats not okay right? Unless of course the coach was a 'Pure Boxer' himself once!

    In fact, from the fights Ive seen from Thailand, I`d say their actual boxing skills are pretty low compared to a standard boxer, as they seem to use their legs a lot more and use the hands simply to set that up!

    No offence to any MT students meant, in fact Westerners seem much more up on training the hand techniques than the actual Thai fighters,from what Iv'e seen. My only point was, why would it be okay for one and not another, when both incorporate them and its only down to how they are trained as to how good/poor they are/become!

    One doesnt have to be a champion boxer to throw a punch!

    We incorporate throwing at our school for example (as its part of the Ch'ang Hon syllabus), not as many as say a Judo club, but a reasonable amount - but students are always told that if they want to get them even better, they should train with a Judo instructor - that doesnt mean they shouldnt train them though - they can still get them to a decent level - in fact one of my students beat Jiu-Jitsu students at a friendly 'groundwork and throws' only competition at the end of a seminar once!

    TKD doesnt claim to have everything, it (meaning the syllabus) does however have knee and elbow techniques and its down to clubs/instructors as to how much and how often these are trained, which, as you are aware, the nature of many TKD clubs do not do as much (if any) of what they really should in this area.

  4. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    On the other hand, not all clubs are 100% sport focused. At my friends WTF school in the US, they do competition sparring (as they compete), but they see themselves as a martial arts club first and foremost, which means students do not soley concentrate on tournament stuff.

    In fact, at that club, students do ground work too.. the instructor teaches it to them as part of their training, as he is proficient in Sombo and trained regularly with Eric Paulson (amongst others). I dont think he's ever graded in it, but he is good enough at it to teach it, alongside his KKW techniques. His students are also decent, I know as when I visited I rolled with all of them (the adults). I also sparred them in both (what they call) open sparring (meaning hands and sweeps are allowed) and WTF competition sparring and TBH, they seemed pretty well rounded to me!

  5. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    I've certainly heard stories of WTF schools that train in a more extensive curriculum than just what works in competitions. I'm really only speaking in generalizations.

    Generally speaking, if I were a karate guy or ITF guy fighting in a boxing match and was told nothing other than that my opponent was a WTF TKDist then I would feel pretty confident and would be surprised if he gave me a lot of trouble. But of course that doesn't mean there aren't guys out there who WILL surprise you.
  6. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    If you have the skill to spar under a more open, realistic rule-set I see no reason to use the other limiting, less realistic rule-set.
  7. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    In my opinion, that is EXACTLY like saying that soccer sucks because you can't use your hands.

    Are we talking about sports or self-defense? If it's sports, realism has nothing to do with anything.

    I'll also point out that I guess MMA is the only legitimate ruleset because it is the most realistic and you "see no reason to use the limiting, less realistic rulsets" of boxing or MT.
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2012
  8. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    You mean apart from the fact that the tournament you want to enter demands that you do!!!!!

    I still don't get if you are refering to SD type sparring or comps, as you talk about rules all the time, when in reality there are no rules in SD!!!

    People will train different types of sparring depending on what they want to achive.. if they are going to do a TKD comp then it makes perfect sense to train under that ruleset!

    If SD is the only focus, then they don't have to.. though a club may not give them an option if the club is training for a tournament.. though in private they can spar how they like.

    I dont compete much anymore, so I prefer traditional sparring myself (akin to what you have described earlier) but my students are younger and still enjoy comps, therefore part of my classes need to be geared that way.

  9. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Oh... and sometimes it just fun to do so! Before I went to the US I had never tried WTF sparring before, but when I did I appreciated it a bit more than I did before, as its not as easy as it looks - especially when you are itching to use your hands etc. And I found it FUN!

  10. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Yes, sure.. I hear ya.. though its always a good idea not to under-estimate any opponent with pre-conceived ideas, as that will give them an advantage by default!

  11. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    No actually it's nothing like that.

    There is martial arts. To me the only "sport" about it is testing your skills against someone and not killing/maiming them.

    Certain limitations are useful for training. When I did MMA/kickboxing/muay thai we'd have round of "hands only" or the like. HOWEVER there was never any "kicks only" because you can work fairly well with just hands, you can't work so well with just feet.
    As I said if you has to remove a MT fighters kicks for environmental reasons he still has knees, elbows, and good punches. If you give a boxer a more free environment they're pretty much fine. Rampage did okay for a long time with very limited kicking skills. The TKD rulesets which are predominantly used from what I've seen (whether WTF or ITf) seem to favour kicking which I'm arguing isn't an environmentally sound way to train except as a limited exercise in refining certain things. For example the hands only round, having one person on defense and one on offense to train each of those, having one person just attacking and one person slipping and blocking, striking only, grappling only, etc, but I consider those sparring drills, not actual sparring.

    Also I'm of sports are sports, martial arts are martial arts. Competitions are used as tests of skills which can be applied IRL. If not then you could go ahead and start an org with a sparring ruleset which has zero connection to actual application and call it martial arts. Something like only getting points for striking someone with your butt?
    I'm not saying TKD is quite that bad but martial arts are not soccer and the goal is the practice of skills which are meant to damage and control people in a combative context.
    As much as I like MT and boxing and still love to watch them occasionally I will not train for a more limited ruleset when I can have a more free one.

    If you want fitness go to a gym. If you want want to win at something go play sports. If you want to learn how to fight go to martial arts. The others are byproducts in martial arts but should not be the main goal.
  12. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    See one of the problems for me when I took TKD as a kid is I was a fairly decent boxer just on instinct back then. I could beat people who were several ranks above me and whose kicking skills outweighed my by far... with only my hands... and I was constantly told "you have to use your feet more" even though I did fine with a mix of 80% hands 20% feet.

    That "itching" was the knowledge that I could take most of them with fists alone.
  13. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    Yeah it is.

    That sounds like a philosophical argument. The fact of the matter though is that Olympic taekwondo is a sport. It may be derived from a martial art, but it is itself a sport. That's why it's in the Olympics. There are plenty of practitioners who train it exclusively that way and I don't see a problem with that.

    So how is a pure boxer or MTer prepared to deal with a wrestler or BJJ guy? Oh, wait. . . I already know. . . UFC 1 showed me.

    A boxer could certainly use his skills in real-life, but boxing itself is first and foremost a sport. Do you think there will be more discussion in a boxing gym about self-defense or how to score on your opponent? Come on.

    I really don't think you're being fair. You want to have your cake and eat it, too. You act like MMA, boxing and MT share an identity as SPORTS above all other things, exactly like Olympic TKD. But because these sports are perhaps more easily translated into self-defense they are given a pass.
  14. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Just now... I have just been on YouTube, searching for the time when (I think) Herbie Hide ended up fighting on the street! I couldnt find it, but found this instead:

    [ame=""]Top 10 Boxing Press Conference Brawls - YouTube[/ame]

    Out of 10 clips, only two see the devastating skills of boxers used as boxing.. even Ali, one the of the greatest boxers ever, ends up grappling - so the wisdom that boxing is the be all and end of of all self defence and thus we should all fine tune our boxing skills via a pro-trainer, is certainly not a realistic one!

    Last edited: Jan 20, 2012
  15. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Hmmm.. i think his was a pretty good comparisom actually!!

    Then you do MMA right.. as TBH, thats the closest you`ll get.. and even that has rules!

    That may explain why the kicks wernt as good as they could have been perhaps! We train rounds of kicks only and kicks Vs hands only etc. Its a way to make the kicks faster and more powerful, as well as learning how to counter a hands only type fighter etc.

    As I said in an earlier post.. kicking would really be my first thought when acting in SD.. your presuming it would be but that is incorrect! I can still kick pretty well though!

    Its enviromentally sound for competition training. Plus most streets arnt exactly sloping ice runs.. training kicks, like all other aspects, simply gives options.. they are not exclusive in TKD, though time is invested to make them good, no matter what the reason!

    So why compete at all, why not just train with as limited rules as possible for reasonable safety! All comps have more rules than you would have yourself, as they cover legal angles that you and a friend dont need to consider really!!

    Shhhhhh! Master Betty will be listening!! :evil:

    Agreed. 100%.. yet for many, the sports side are still fun and interesting.. go figure!

    Thats fair enough, but your persective is that of when you were a child... how old are you now?

    Not really, as to play within the rules you can't.. its simply an itcing to use how you were trained. If that was your assumption.. maybe you were at a poor club or something (not that I`m saying you were).

    When I first turned 1st dan, I fought (at a comp), as guy that was a boxer, who had taken up TKD - the fight was hard contact for sure, but my kicks beat his punches.. btw we both used hands/feet, though as I knew he was a boxer, i kept mainly to feet and his history meant he kept mainly to hands - within the rules I won.. outside of the rules it wouldnt of mattered, as SD dictates that they should really be over in just a few moves and if we were rucking outside, I wouldnt of used the same strategy at all!

    Last edited: Jan 19, 2012
  16. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    Since when was soccer about fighting?

    It's a sport with roots in the martial arts but when you say "no you can't punch" or "no you can't grapple" that's when it ceases to be a martial art and becomes a game. I've competed in jujitsu competitions to test my grappling skills against other people but that's not martial arts... it's a game until you add in the striking.

    You're proving my point about training in a move open ruleset. I'm saying that due to the environmental constraints of where fights generally happen and in what clothing hands, elbows, knees usually rule. Kicks get cut down to straight kicks, side kicks, and maybe low turning kicks as Mitch said. My point in bringing up boxing and MT was that they're less constrained because they have better training in the tools which don't get cut off.

    If by score you mean KTFO the opponent... yes. And read the above concerning environmental constraints. What I'm saying is fighting with your hands will generally yield better results than fighting with your feet unless your fight happens in an open area on a sufficiently grippy (but not too grippy) surface while you're wearing track pants.

    I'm saying certain training is better oriented toward self defense, hands, elbows, knees, grappling, but that only a limited number of kicks have legitimate real-world application because of ground, space, and clothing.

    I think I'm being perfectly fair. If you have a boxer/MT fighter/MMA fighter in jeans, in a small space, or on slippery ground, or all three, they have an advantage over someone who trains for a rule-set geared primarily toward kicking.

    Four of those clips didn't really have any fighting in them and with the remaining six you're proving my point about training in a move open ruleset.
    What I'm saying is in those situations with people around and jeans on you can still use all of boxings tools... but TKD get handicapped.
  17. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    We did that as well. It was good training for kicks... but that's a drill, not full sparring.

    No I'm presuming that when wearing jeans, in close quarters, or on bad footing you pretty much scrap the turning kicks, head kicks, etc.

    To improve a specific skill set which has actual application. I don't train head kicks much anymore because they're not a useful tool for me in my everyday clothing.

    Good :cool:

    True, but if that were the main focus it would no longer be martial arts.

    No it's not. I just happened to be better with my hands at that time. Now I've realized that an art which trains primarily in kicks is more limiting in a real life encounter than something which trains in in kicks, punches, elbows, and knees, or all of the above plus grappling.

    Was never trained as a puncher... was just good at it. And that's the problem here... rules. More of them isn't better... less is.

    And that right there is my point. You play the way you practice. So why not free yourself up a bit and practice a more open ruleset?
  18. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Your previous post specifically said you did'nt!!!

    Sorry, bad typing there, it should have read "kicking would'nt really be my first thought when acting in SD". - that said, when i buy clothes, i buy stuff I can kick in.. yup, I`ve tried on suits and thrown kicks in the mirror just to check :cool: In close quarters, Id use CQB techniques as thats how I train, and on bad ground I`d be careful for sure.. though I`m pretty sure no-one wuld be trying fancy kicks if standing on ice (etc.) anyway!

    But arnt you limiting that improvement by competing under 'rules'!!!

    No-one said it had to be the main focus - though I agree, there are some clubs that do.

    You didnt answer about your age then? And of course, whats your age now? That said, I agree with you in that any art that primarily trains in one aspect, is more limiting than an art that trains multi-aspects - TKD has many aspects - its up to the instructor to ensure they are trained! To say TKD is only kicks is incorrect!

    LOL.. well doesnt that go against what Badger Ladder says in his posts!!! Maybe change, 'trained' for 'good at' through experience!

    We already have an open ruleset, that we balance pretty well with comp rule set - thus both sides of the equation is satisfied. I am speaking from an instructor POV though.. In a club students want both!

  19. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    I meant no foot only vs foot only.

    Sorry, bad typing there, it should have read "kicking would'nt really be my first thought when acting in SD". - that said, when i buy clothes, i buy stuff I can kick in.. yup, I`ve tried on suits and thrown kicks in the mirror just to check :cool: In close quarters, Id use CQB techniques as thats how I train, and on bad ground I`d be careful for sure.. though I`m pretty sure no-one wuld be trying fancy kicks if standing on ice (etc.) anyway!

    Yes but from the "rules" standpoint when refining my grappling to train for free sparring having a style which focuses only on throws.. but only from the clinch.. and only arm locks allowed on the ground.. that would be analogous to
    what I see from most TKD sparring.

    I think I was 8 or 9.

    I think that's irrelevant and not something I want to give out on an internet forum.

    I know it's not only kicks I just disagree with the as primary basis being kicking.

    If you want to reference something like that please quote Stuart. I don't like leafing back through a thread to try and find what I suppose someone's referring to.

  20. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Okay... well thats what I was (in the most part) refering to - as its a good method for increasing kicking skills, just likes hands Vs hands is a good method for increasing boxing ability - which, as I say, may be a cause why you feel like you do! Note that I said maybe - depending how you look at things!

    Sure.. but as I and others has said, by defining that, you a focusing on the "sport" rules.. they are not the TKD martial art rules nor (as TKDStudent has pointed out) are they the real rules of free sparring - just because many have adopted them as so, it doesnt make that correct! I`ve suggested a couple of times to students who do well at our 'traditional sparring' to consider other types of comps - but they simply arnt interested in doing that for sport, they like training that way, but thats it - though they still enjoy TKD style comps and the training for that as well!!!

    Thats fine (though TBH I dont see the problem with giving out your age) - my point was only to say that the perspective you see as a kid, is not the same as a mature adult or when your older - I asks your age just to see how many years had passed since you had that perception. TBH.. I havnt seen many 8/9 year olds with the same level of kicking skills Vs punching skills, as you can see in older teenage/adult students - if they exsist, they are rare IMO! Hence its a poor comparison! (IMO)

    But I dont think it is - yes, TKD clubs spend a lot of time on kicks, but thats because a) kicks are a harder thing to get good as opposed to say punching, and b) because as you say the rules reward kicking in competitions - that said, for me, as an instructor, if I spend time on kicking its more because of A and rarely B - and there is also only so much time in class isnt there! I think we are talking from mixed purposes - you as a student/me as an instructor - but even so, as a student I still enjoyed kicking, its just I had inifinate time to work all areas, a club doesnt!

    Sorry, I figured you`d be keeping up with the thread and its only a few pages back! In essense, he said that to be a good 'puncher' one must have to train with a 'boxing coach' or else you cant be - your point, even as an 8/9 year old, sort of disproves that, if you had no former training, but still could out-punch everyone in the club you went to!

    As I said, we are coming from two different viewpoints, though I am still a student myself I can't help but look at things from an instructors POV and even if I was speaking from just as a students POV, I still wouldnt 100% agree with you, as I feel good kicks are a valuable asset in SD, but also, as a student, SD wasnt my only focus - it was there, but became more primary later on, even though I still competed - and thats when I didnt do so well at comps as I had done prevously - its a scales thing I guess - depending on what you what, is what balances the scales!


    Ps. I fixed your poor quoting :cool: ;)
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2012
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page