TOG TKD

For a very simple reason with little if anything to do with TKD's practicality or SD!
it was done to solve an identity crisis!
The TKD sports match rules that would eventually evolve or become the Olympic TKD rule set overseen by the WTF were created to insure that TAE SOO DO (as it was called then) would be distinct from karate. The men that created these rules were trained in Korean karate by Koreans that learned karate in Japan during the occupation period when Korea was dominated by Imperial Japan during the brutal colonial period. As a result of this "dark period" having taken place, causing great hatred by Koreans for anything Japanese, there was simply no way Koreans would want anyone to know their martial sport (art) was Japanese or had roots from karate imported from Japan.
This is well documented and can be found in free PDFs on the web.

As to the ITF I can tell you that the rules were created by Gen. Woo Jong Lim, who was also on the tournament committee of the Korean TAE SOO DO Association. Gen. Choi has 6 types of sparring listed & explained in his system, with tournament sports match rules sparring not 1 of the 6. He devised what he calls "free sparring" for blue belts and above that is essentially an open combat with all participants "free" to use any & all available means to attack & defend!
While his sports rule set for sparring matches have many prohibitions, they are for black belts. Nothing precludes other ranks from participating & nothing stops an ITFer from holding a competition where more or where everything goes. Some ITFers have adapted somewhat to compete under the same rules, but going full contact in a boxing ring.
So we could also set up cage matches as well!
I am not aware that ITF sports rules were specifically devised to be different from karate, even though they are. I have only come to know that they had restrictions on or in them for safety reasons.

 

While I am not a WTFer it is pretty well documented that this came after or was a result of the rules adapted. The reason why the rule set was devised was to hide the connection to karate & the hated Japanese!
1- The marketing to the IOC came under the leadership of Dr. Kim Un Yong, who took over in 1971. The rules came a decade earlier.
2- The theory is that the fast kicking, quick stepping and counter-kicking emphasis came as a result of adapting to the rules where the rules dictate the strategies that are to be employed if one wishes to be successful, ie WIN!

 

What has sparring got to do with SD?

One is a sport based competition ruleset and one is anything goes defence, where no rules apply, of yourself or family! IMO, they are not comparable and none of the examples given make them so, they are just fractions of the main, not the whole and TBH, not even close.. anyone who's been there can tell you that!

The OP comes from the miscomprehension that sport = SD.. sorry, but it doesnt.. sport is sport and a way to win trophies, gain recognition etc. within whatever ruleset is set! SD is much more serious. Sport is the fun side (or money side) of MA, a way to let those express their testosterone and feel great.. but that great feeling is not the same as saving your familes exsistance!

One can spend their time training for whatever scenerio type they wish - sport/SD/Mixture of both!


Stuart

 

You are talking about a sparring ruleset in the olympics. Have you ever seen a boxing afficiando gush over how much they love to watch Olympic boxing? Probably not. Most of them can't stand it. And I have heard long time judoka saying, "You have to be a lawyer to compete in Olympic judo..." the Olympics have a reputation of seriously messing with a martial art.

Personally I have known martial artists that have successfully defended themselves with kicks. I have also known others where it has come up short for them (even where cowboy boots caused a slip with a kick, take that Walker Texas Ranger). But this is true for any martial art. One of the grappling moderators on Sherdog talked about getting someone in a clinch not realizing the guy had a knife and he got stabbed. Sometimes you zig when you should have zagged. It can happen with any art. But I think the training always had some benefit (even the cowboy boot guy managed to out scramble his opponent by being in better shape).

 

I have experience in TKD and have taken very very seriously yet I can see what your saying Sketco but you wont get anywhere discussing it.
It is not to be disrespectfull just to state the fact that Tkd may have other things besides kicks but there is no depth or science to rival other arts that specialise in those areas. TKD does have hands but it is miles away from the science of boxing. I am affraid all people will say is ''Tkd has hands'' and be satisfied, then sell that as good enough. That will be repeated for all areas you try to discuss..''Tkd has throws''..'TKD has knees''...etc etc etc.

I think TKD has been critisised that much that its gone too far the other way to try to justify itself .It not all total cack but its not got all the stuff some claim but you might see poor attempts at it trying to be. Its not wrong to say TKD has elbows, for example. It has. But that statement misrepresents the depth of knowledge of elbows and all the fundamentals and ways and tactics that there are in the use of elbows. In TKD its not deep enough to realy make the statment ''TKD has elbows'' when you compare it to an art where elbows realy are trained.
If you have stepped out of TKD and learned then you try to step back in and point this out to those who have not, it is difficult and they dont get it.

Also people find it hard to be wrong after putting so much into to something so will justify ther time and grades by continuing the same path rather than just step outside and start again. Rather than go and learn boxing,MT or Judo and start again and learn, many high grades will do a bodge job at incorporating the areas these arts specalise in. They know these areas are needed but wont take that big step and just admit TDK lacks alot here and go to the experts. Because ''Its already therea and always was''

Just go and train and fill in the gaps with the experts and have your own journey and adventure.

 

I had these...the bottom leg areas were called "bell bottoms'

There were even "laced front" as well as a button down front"

Speaking of TKD close quarters. What many have to realize, a lot of TKD schools shared SD with Hapkido or Yudo.

I have seen so many bouts in pubs and so-called streets, that I actually seen a TKDer use a great hand combo in a restaurant-pub establishment.

Don't be ready to dismiss the style, but dismiss the teacher/teaching or the school curriculum first.

 

Did you take a hit to the head? Re-read. It was the others that brought up the ruleset, not I. Don't try to put words in my mouth.

Training in a way that will allow me not to kill all of my training partners but keep as much realism and as few rules as possible.

I HAVE been there, many times. Don't try to play that angle with me. Sparring does help you to a point provided you train with minimal rules and the proper environmental constraints... just enough to keep you safe.

Sport helps you more the more realism you have.... Oh, and I fixed your spelling.

I understand most TKD making the rules that way for identity reasons as someone pointed out but I think training for a rule-set which scores highest on head kicks and far less on punches, takedowns, elbows, knees, etc is a hindrance to SD training.

 

I don't dismiss TKD but I do see an issue with such a large focus in training high kicks in most schools I've seen.

 

I agree with the high kicking aspect. I had many friends in TKD or advocates of high kicking, esp in tournaments. I kept telling them, from my decades of actual fight observations, very rare have I seen kicks above targeting above the waist.

Then there are the blokes who post MMA fight bouts were there is a high kick.

 

I have noticed that you are quite the crusader. . .

 

To play the devil's advocate, I think that if you train in these kinds of conditions ALL the time the you will pick up habits that will actually hinder you from performing with maximum speed and power when on a surface where you have good footing, which is most of the time.

 

I don't disagree, but if the discussion is self-defense--and it seems to be--then I'd ask how sophisticated one's hand techniques have to be to defend oneself from untrained (as most street thugs are) assailants? Provided you're not at a serious weight disadvantage, reasonably fast, powerful, accurate punches should get the job done and there's no reason why any TKDer shouldn't be able to develop those.

In a bar fight, it's not necessary to be Floyd Mayweather.

 

If that's your only focus in training, then you're right, it's a hindrance and I don't think anyone would dispute that. If anyone disputes that, speak up now.

TKD sparring is a game. It allows one to develop certain attributes that can be carried over into SD--good, powerful kicks, timing, accuracy, etc.--but it does not really resemble a self-defense encounter. This is why a TKD practitioner needs to include other self-defense focused activities, if in fact that's something they're concerned about. On the other hand, they may not be concerned about that and are only interested in the game. If that's the case, so be it. They are a competitive athlete, just like a basketball player or a gymnast.

 

Probibly...with a high kick whilst training SD related sparring :love:

Fair enough... so your only real point was do the kicks of Taekwon-do/Taekwondo work in the street (irrespective of any other limbs a TKD'er may use/train in or for SD) - right? Well, you partly answered your own question there and then, some do better than others, some depend on the users skill and some probibly shouldnt be attempted.

Well, realistically an SD situation should be over pretty quick - if not, for whatever reason then you`ll be fighting, which is what you see is akin to sparring - so if thats what you want, whats to stop you allowing takedowns, throws, submissions etc. in your sparring - nothing - I know many TKD clubs that do that already. However, that said, when you say "sparring" to many TKD'ers they do immediatly (and often exclusively) think of sport style sparring!

Then you already have your answers then.. so why post in the first place!!! Or are you trying to educate the rest of us perhaps!

Which angle is that?

Depends what type of sparring you do actually! As a poster has already pointed out, if you spar predominantly Olympic WTF sparring, it has lesser SD benefits (due to its restrictions) than some other forms of sparring - but its still sparring!

Sport also has rules for safety, making the realism limited!

Oh the shame of it!!!

But you miss the point - the rulesets are defined by the big orgs and as such, TKD schools that compete in TKD comps are forced, like it or not, to compete within that ruleset and thus train that ruleset to compete. That doesnt mean a school has to train comp sparring rules exclusively and thus be restricted by the orgs rules - in training a club or instructor can change/adjust/alter/use any ruleset they feel is valuable to the student in training!!!

Furthermore, the ruleset you refer to (which you say you wern't refering to previously) is about "sport" not "SD", so yes, I would agree (which I did in my earlier post) that to train exclusively competition sparring rules (as defined in TKD) is a hinderence to SD training!

Stuart

 

Sparring is an essential part of learning SD. I think we have to define terms here!
In ITF TKD or original TKD, the 1st KMA to be labeled TKD, has 6 types of sparring, most based on learning to protect oneself! The others to show audiences the capability, including that for SD that one can gain through training in ITF TKD! Of these 6 types of sparring, tournament sports match rules competition is simply NOT ONE OF THEM!
The problem often is when schools place all the emphasis on tournament competition. This is not limited to the WTF. In fact in some cases it is even worse with the ITF as they also focus so much on tournament pattern competition. At least the WTF focuses mainly on full contact sport matches!

Another BIG problem is that far too many instructors in the ITF do not more fully understand Gen. Choi's entire system & how it relates, connects to the other parts, especially when it comes to SD. I see far too many ITFers doing fake, make believe go along HOOSINSUL thinking - See I covered SD! Formal HOOSINSUL is just a component of SD, not SD. Tricky terminology in a foreign language doesn't help either imnsho.

 

I think this sums it up best!
If the physical focus of your training is on SD - then eventually it should lead to this route stated above.
ITF TKD is supposed to have the physical emphasis on SD. The overall main focus is development of the total self, in hopes of making better members of society, which will lead to "building a more peaceful world". Therefore ITF TKD can never be as effective for attaining pure SD skills. If that is the desired goal, one should seek a combat style geared towards the type of SD one is looking for.
The problem as I see it is the emphasis on tournaments. Then some realize, oh! we have to include SD, so they sometimes then go through the motions, which is probably worst than not doing anything at all in some cases building a false sense of security & opening up TKD to justified criticisms.

 

Well yes.. but I immediatley think that when one refers to 'sparring' or more precisely 'free-sparring' that 99.9% of students see it only as competition sports rules type sparring and thus, replied in that regards. My bad I guess!

As you know from previous discussions, I advocate 'true' free sparring in training - the SD related kind, but became disillusioned with the amount of people that only thought of the sports type associated with it, so much so I changed the name of it within my school, to diffieniate it from the sport kind.

LOL.. great point - sooooo its real funny/odd how so many simply see it as exactly sports comp sparring only... its a shame!

Stuart

 

Yes but sadly so many commercial schools are simply BAD at doing SD, unless of course it is a combat based school of fighting that is not a rip off.
I think few people really want to train in down & dirty effective save yourself before it is too late training. Most want fluff or fluff for their kiddies & getting a BB for next to nothing, as far as sweat goes, money is a way bit higher!

 

Agreed, plus throw in fake, go along, make believe HOOSINSUL & you have a disaster IMHO!

 

Yes thanks, I think!

There is much blame to go around, but not really so much with the system of ITF TKD, perhaps the best documented system of MAs of all time.
Blame can start with Gen. Choi, nit a fighter himself, who was highly politically motivated, some good, some not as good. His focus was on his patterns, which he looked at as his signature & what made his TKD, TKD! therefore he spent the majority of his time on his patterns & standardizing them, which he succeeded at, at a level never matched before. In fact, now we see the growing pains decades later, with the KKW & WTF struggling with standardization with the fairly new WC of Poomsae. Gen. Choi basically did this years ago, almost single handedly, a really unique accomplishment. It goes to his stature & his contribution to the MAs.
Then the TAE SOO DO guys share blame as well, for trying to make their Korean martial sport different from the karate it came from. They did this by making a new set of sports rules, while effective At being radically different from Japanese karate, did not transfer well into a good fit for SD or exciting matches for most. Then they simply adopted Gen. Choi's name, but not his system, so we have 2 different entities with the same name. Very confusing!

Over time I think it is natural to get what you have been emphasizing. So we see the impact the sports focus on both tournament sports match rules & patterns has had on SD.

Gen. Choi gave the answer: Practice with realism!