Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Sketco, Jan 11, 2012.

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  1. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Errr... correct me if I`m wrong (cos I havnt check back on the tread), but didnt you say something along the lines of "saying there in there, just cos they are in patterns doesnt make them in there and its a misrepresentation to say that" - alluding that a TKD person shouldnt say they are there, if they are not being trained at all! - Splitting hairs a bit mate!

    How can an untrained technqiue be the same standard as a trained technique!!!! Even if it doesnt reach you heady heights of what constitutes 'decent'!!!

    I dont have to show anything... or do you mean in the text of this discussion (which would make more sense), if so.. I can say the same of you!

    No... should I have? Or more to the point, why would I have.. heck, I couldnt even find that throwing vid to show you and that was quite popular a few years back! Though I have it on VHS.. probibly some other stuff too :)

    Well, as TKD was, from its very beginning, always influenced by all types of things... I`d say its pretty normal.. besides, it what seem that if you saw something decent, you would decide its been 'influenced' and if you saw something poor you would decide it 'hasnt been influenced', so a case cant be made either way now! Hell, theres a video clip of me from 20 years ago, when I was working out alone, on a heavy bag where I'm using elbows, both in shadow sparring and on the bag (and even some conditioning work)... not much influence back then - just TKD!! So that would disprove your point straight away! (And yes, its online :))

    And I can confidently say your wrong.. my instructor taught me elbows (not just in patterns), AFAIA he didnt train in other arts (moreso as back then people didnt or rarely cross trained), and his first instructor was GM Rhee.. cant say how much Ive been influenced or not, as I`ve always loved training with others and look for ways to make things more productive... but it doesnt change the fact I was first shown them by someone who wouldnt have had similar 'influences'.

    LOL... 'to a degree' meaning most of what you wrote, just probibly not as indepth as say an art that has them as a main tool!But still decent enough IMO

    Its you reading that doesnt add up.... I said the sparring can be heavy, though the elbows must be controlled (ie. pulled/light contact if to the head/face/spine etc.)

    Splitting hairs again. Speed + Mass = Power... sorry for not being more precise in my terminology of things!

    Actually, most TKD technqiues work on speed.. because Speed + Mass = Power.. its in the good book you know (the equation that is) :woo:

    And... Did anyone say the only training is standing there with a pad, elbowing it!!! No.. I said that was one method employed amongst other things!

    LOL... people make comments about many things, whether fully informed or not.. many are either one-sided, ill-informed or biased!
  2. cloystreng

    cloystreng Valued Member

    I got to page 14, but I really don't want to get caught up in this. That being said, I ALWAYS try my clothing on in the handicapped changing room so I can practice all my kicks. I don't buy shoes that slip in rain, because that is stupid. Why would anyone want slick-soled shoes?

    I've cross trained in several other systems, but I feel taekwondo is my main martial art, by far. I don't usually kick higher than chest anyway, usually around the lower mid-section. I used to fight in Olympic sparring, up to the national level, even though I train ITF. Its a sport, and I didn't think it was anything else. If the opportunity presents itself to kick head height, sure I will go for it because I've trained and I'm fast enough. But if its slippery of the ground I'm not gonna be "Oh no, its slippery and I can only headhunt with kicks!" because I did olympic sparring or I trained kicks more than I trained strikes.

    If footing is to blame, punch, grab, and kick the knees. Stomp the feet (hell, its in Toi Gye like 6x in a row!). If its jeans, then get jeans that fit. Wear a belt to keep the crotch higher so pivoting is easy.

    Do I think taekwondo includes everything? No, its in the books but its not usually trained. StuartA, I'd love to train at your school, but most people don't. However, its got enough that I fully feel without my wrestling, judo, and BJJ, I'd be okay.

    Lastly, as a 2nd dan I've been training (besides college, where my training is more diverse and only 3-4 times per week), every single day for the past 5 years and 2-3x per week for 4 years before that. If thats not enough time to train and learn some grappling, striking, submissions, along with the kicking, I don't know how long I would need.
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2012
  3. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    Last edited: Mar 9, 2012
  4. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Okay.. I`ll take your word for it as really cant be bothered trawling through all the pages.. even if to find out I`m wrong lol.. still disagree that the standard is too low - though I do agree (and have all along) they could be 'upped' by training with those that do them more specifically. I guess the real disagreement is whether they nee to be, to be effective... I say no (for my students anyway) - that said, always happy to learn and make things better by others, hence IAOMAS.

    Ah! getya now.. you should explain things more clearly you know :rolleyes:

    Firstly, I never said people shouldnt be inspired to make certain areas better via other arts.. I simply said its not a major thing, as from what I`ve seen/felt, the standrad is okay (cept in those clubs that dont train them at all). Secondly, I`m not out to change your mind! I`m simply defending the TKD I know.. and if I felt you were correct.. I would agree with you.

    LOL.. we covered that already. remind me in a few months when Im not so busy with stuff and I`ll take a video camera into class and capture some (Althought TBH.. i dont think anything will be waht you are looking for). Like I said, as far as my school and students go (which is a TKD school that adheres to the syllabus).. the standard is decent enough - sure, it could be improved but like I said, thats the same for all areas which is why I gave the Bill Wallace anology.

    Must be the way you write again.. you said "No TKD instructor with no outside influence,just TKD as laid out by pioneers,does not go into that stuff. I confidently say that. " - hence why I read it as that, you mean in detail right?

    yup. fine with that.

    This is not meantto be offencive, but your opinion doesnt change any fact about my school or how we do TKD. So again, we`ll disagree there too!

    Isnt enlightenment great. I thought patterns were just routines... not any more :eek:

    My bad typing this time - I said (in reference to elbows) "it is also allowed in one of our types of sparring (albeit controlled as its heavy, but not full contact)" - this meant the sparring is heavy contact with much of the techniques, but the elbows need to be controlled as an uncontrolled elbow to the head, joint or spine is dangerous in the extreme. For example - should one student get the other in a side headlock.. rather than use the point of his elbow on his opponents spine.. he would hit the opponents back with his tricep to signify it. As this type of sparring isnt a contest of win/lose.. even if the opponent doesnt recognise it, the fact that the student was able to do it is fine anyway.

    That will be fun :)
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2012
  5. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    I am not splitting hairs. You said you train for power development and generation. Elbows, to be used in a realistic way in unison with striking, kneeing and kicking and clinching, are not about power.

    Virtualy everything in TKD is about hitting as hard as possible.There are exceptions like grasping or grabbing. Thats just TKD philosophy, which is not bad. But its not true for everything when doing things to a more proffessional level.
    I know and you know what TKD elbows are like. A straight one is more akin to an foream strike,looking to destroy the target, than a proper elbow with the point looking to cut.

    Taekwondo does not go into or train or drill elbows as well as something like Muay thai. You cant seriouly try to claim it does .I am making the sugestion that it is not that difficuly to get the standard better in TKD by taking these drills and training methods and ideas and incorporationg them into TKD.
    If you dont think it needs it then we will just have to disagree. If your claiming its already in there or was ,then thats realy dillusional.
  6. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    I was eating at a Korean's house and he serived up elbows-----macoroni
  7. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    Yes, I meant into the details I mentioned. The fundamentals. I am not saying TKD does not contain elbows or train them.

    I have been saying all along that it when people stick up for TKD or talk about it it sounds better than it is. You said you sparred with elbows, heavy yet controlled. Its sounds way more hardcore and better than it actualy is. Just like when people say it contains Judo, boxing ,wrestling and other things. The truth is when you look at it, is different and far removed from this.
  8. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Well, you were.. as diffientiating things between training for power against using speed seems a bit silly, because to create power, you need speed.. as mass alone doesnt do it!

    Are you deliberatly reading more into things than whats said - I said of the methods we employ, one of them is using bags/sheilds for power generation. I never said or implied it was the only method used and was simply saying it so you didnt feel they were only practice in patterns or in thin air!

    I never said anything to that effect! I simply said power generation is part of their training at the school!

    Via the use of speed + mass as decribed! Speed and technique are more critical factors than just raw power.. so again, we disagree there!

    Not sure what you are refering to here... is there professional self defence then?

    Off the top of my head - the only straight elbow in TKD that I know of is 'Straight Elbow Downward Thrust' which uses the point of the elbow to strike downwards. No other elbow is termed 'straight'! that said, we also have front, side, rear, upper and turning elbows.. theres even a 45 degree elbow that travels like a downward hook - most do use the boney part of the elbow, but not all of them, as others use the point! But you would know that right, with your experience of TKD, so Im confused why you dont! And so, only 'cutting' elbow strikes are 'proper' elbows are they.. lol!!!

    I never once suggested it does. My only despute is that the training for them isnt as lame as you seem to think or suggest!

    Again, I never suggested it wouldnt.. simply that AFAIA the methods employed right now, in some schools, seem/are decent enough. Sure, we can push those levels higher if we wish, but by not doing so, it doesnt take away the fact they work already!

    Guess so!

    Claiming what was there already.. elbows.. then yes I do... training methods to make them functional.. then yes I do. Methods that are better than MT.. then no, I have never said that!

    Again.. you are misreading what i said, even after i explained it to you in more detail.. is it deliberate or something! Once again, I say it simple for you - the sparring is heavy - the elbows need to be and are controlled - I cant say it similer than that and if you still dont get it, you must be on a wind up or something!

    Actually, compared to competition sparring, it is.

    Yours was obviously... not everyones is! Although to be fair no one claims it incorporates all those arts you mention.. just elements of them.. except the wrestling of course, which AFAIA wasnt incorporated in any guise.
  9. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    Theres is way more to it than that. That theory is TKD philosophy based on science. Every form of fighting or movement or way to cause damage does not revolve around that theory. We are humans not machines. Its not that simple.
    That you dont understand what I mean might suggest you dont know elbows in depth enough. Thats not meaning to offend just that if I have to explain, it must be so.
    I am also not saying I know everything either. I am always learning.

    No. Elbows are about speed not power. If you say you do things to generate power , I can only comment on what your saying.

    I certain areas, TKD is amature in its approach and application.

    Sematics. I dont know what you would call it. Could be reffered to a front elbow. With a few exceptions yes, all proper elbows should hit with the point of the elbows and hopefuly cut, maybe a knockout.If not ,its not an elbows its the forearm.

    Why the extreme? Have I said the word lame? No. I still dont get why you interprete what I say to such a negative extreme. I have not used these words.

    No, I am trying to show that you cant be training them realisticaly if you are sparring with elbows. Something did not add up. Pros rarely elbow in sparring, even when doing it lightly , so for you to say you did spar, heavy, it did not add up. And no it still does not add up to me. I dont get heavy yet controlled. Well I do, but not if you claim thats good training or realistic. Its like lets pretend time at low intensity. So no, I dont get whats so good about it , and I dont mind at all not getting it. Which is why I asked for examples or clips.

    You dont know what my training was like so throwing that one around again is tiring. If not everyones.. show me. Where are these good examples.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2012
  10. cloystreng

    cloystreng Valued Member

    Saying that you cannot train and use elbows in a powerful manner is bogus. It is a human limb, and is therefore possible to use in multiple ways. In YOUR style, it is only correct if used quickly to hope to cut an opponent.

    In mine, I might be grabbed from behind and during my escape, elbow backward with all of my hip and shoulder power. Thats a power elbow.

    Keep an open mind to different techniques.
  11. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member


    There must be magic dust in the air lol.

    Have I said training and using elbows in a powerfull manner is bogus? No.
    I also train in TKD.

    TKD approaches all striking techniques with power and destruction in mind. Thats TKD philosophy. That is ok for a start. When you go deeper in to certain things, which TKD doesnt, then that approach is not as professional or as realistic in terms of fighting or fighting back whilst kneeing, elbowing, clinching, kicking, striking during a violent encounter, as some other approaches.
    I note there are exceptions and said as much inmy last post.

    ''With a few exceptions yes, all proper elbows should hit with the point of the elbows and hopefuly cut, maybe a knockout.If not ,its not an elbows its the forearm.''

    I dont get how attempting to make something better or move forward and take different approaches can be met with such negativitly. You guys must be so negative.
  12. cloystreng

    cloystreng Valued Member

    Tone must transfers really poorly over the internet (likely the case, I think).

    When you question the "professionalism" of a style, it comes off as arrogant and pompous. It seems like you didn't mean it in that way, but thats how it sounds.

    What does "professionalism" even mean? Pro MMA? Pro bodyguard? Muay Thai ringfighter? Street fighter? Something else?

    That problem is not that you are progressive, using the elbow in new and different ways. Thats great, and really all stylists should be progressing in some way though learning other arts - it is really important and I know that I have done the same over the past years.

    But when you insist that the "proper" or "professional" or "realistic" usage of a method of striking is exclusive to a certain way of striking, its a knee-jerk reaction to oppose said thinking. Though you may not mean it in this way, it sounds like the same closed-minded thinking that keeps martial artists from branching out, insisting that their style is the best and only proper method.
  13. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    You know what I can genuinly see that point from your side. The frustrating thing is that I have not questioned the proffesionalsm of TKD. I questioned certain areas. There a difference.A big one. And I have not said its crap or bogus or anything. Big difference.
    Do you honestly say EVERY area of TKD is up to date and proffesional trained? Does anyone. No room for improvement? Anywhere?
    Now what other words can I use?
    If a person believes TKD knife work could be greatly improved ,theres only a few ways to say it.
    ''TKD has knife work thats crap''
    or ''TKD has knife work thats not as good as x and so it wouldbe good to do what x does to improve it.''.
    The latter would still be seen as ''TKD has crap knifework'' going by this thread.
  14. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Guess you havnt read my article called "Taekwon-Do Science" then.. maybe you should, maybe you`ll see that I disagree with the "science" behind TKD and why! Its available on the Rayners Lane TKD web site btw :)

    Hmmm.. maybe.. but the fact you don't seem to acknowledge the equation I offered means maybe you don't understand!The equation is NOT TKD.. its basic physics of how power is obtained! I say power, you say speed.. except speed it one of the elements that produces power!

    Hope you learned the equation then! No offence, its a good thing to know!

    See above. As a reminder Speed + Mass = Power!

    You mean immature right! I`m not in agreement.. it may not be as 'high end' as MT, but its decent enough! I dont study caligraphy.. yet people still read my writing fine... I dont study 'Higher Maths' yet i can still count my change.. point is, what we know and do and use works perfectly well.. if people wanna take it further, thats fine too, but as it is.. thats just as fine!

    Sematics yes.. but you say you "know TKD".. so figured you`d know the lingo!!! Obviously not!

    A. Hate to point this out, but what you term 'the point' is part of the Ulna and thus, still part of the forearm and B. just cos what you do says 'point' it doesnt make it correct. In my system and countles others, we use the front of the elbow for many strikes.. that is the correct way in TKD and other systems. "Proper" lol at that one!

    You do see them as lame. Its not an extreme word.. dont be such a baby. You feel, compared to what you do now, they are lame.. whether you said it or not.. so what, thats what you feel and how it comes across. "Negative extreme" lol. Okay then.. so the methods are not lame right?

    We train them as 'realistically', as is safe to do so in that type of sparring. So by your reckoning, as Pro-Elbowers dont use them in sparring - they CANNOT be training them realistically at all right? Of course not! No offence, but elbow strikes are less of a science than other areas!

    Well, you must be playing dumb then, as its really simple... the standard sparring type is heavy contact, but dangerous technqiues, such as elbows etc. need to be controlled. Its not that hard to grasp, pretty simple in fact.. which makes me wonder why you say you don't get it!

    Oh.. you do get it then.. perhaps you were just trolling me by saying you didnt! :eek: And actually, the training is very realistic and its great training TBH!

    Nope.. the exact opposite of that actually!

    Examples are on the web site. You have already said you didnt like them, so more will not win you over. Not that I care.. my students and myself find great value in the training and thats all that matters TBH.

    You said you do TKD, you make assumptions on 'all' TKD.. my TKD and my training in it is vastly different from yours, so its an exacting assumption to make.. as your views here are based on your training an my views and defference to yours are based on mine - hence my comment!
  15. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    LOL.. someone else disagrees with you, so you think its a conspiracy!!

  16. cloystreng

    cloystreng Valued Member

    Professionalism is not the right word. Its more like "depth into such and such" or "efficacy". Though "depth into _______" doesn't really roll off the tongue. Maybe saying depth. Comparing forefist punching techniques between a boxer and a karateka, only the forefist, the boxing has more depth into those techniques, while karate is more shallow regarding forefist thrusting techniques, because there is more forefist striking, in both emphasis and number of techniques in boxing than karate.

    I wouldn't say that Taekwondo has gone as indepth with the elbow strike as the Thais have, and I don't feel that you are questioning TKD as a martial art in itself, no worries.

    I think TKD elbow attacks can be improved, and looking to the best at it is a good idea. That said, I would put TKD elbow technique far from crap - it can be more inclusive, but it has a lot of good stuff and you can certainly get by fine.

    I understand that just because something is good enough, doesn't mean it can't be improved. My sidekick is my best asset, and I can plaster someone into a wall or do some real damage, and its fast. But I continue to train and look into influences from other sources. If I found out that a different style has better sidekicks, I may see more room for improvement but I don't need to scrap what I have because it isn't a proper kick as you want to call it.

    Taekwondo stylists can improve their use of elbows by looking towards other arts, and this is a good idea. StuartA, most taekwondo schools don't do enough with the knees and elbows, and this is a fact. Not saying yours doesn't.

    However, it doesn't mean that what we have so far sucks, or isn't useful/doesn't work. Thats the main point I am trying to make.

    StuartA and Badger Ladder - I think in this discussion it is very important to remember that tone over the internet is nearly impossible to detect. I edited my own post earlier before you guys read it because it came off as flaming after I read it. Lets try and keep the sarcasm out - it comes out REALLY poorly.
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2012
  17. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    WTF. How do you have the gaul to just make something up and express that as my view when I have said nothing of the sort. Again. Its desperate and difficult to have a response. I guess thats the point.
    Dont think that accusing me of being a baby is meant to stop me calling you on your bull. That kind of comment is not very helpful. It says more about you.

    You gave the game away you dont know what your talking about in certain areas so dont try to blind with science and no I dont think it looks proffesional or as realistic as you do. You do exactly the same as I suggest for your gun defence toss( Dont think its to enough depth and so incorporate better) so its also hypocrital, the very thing you first accused me off.

    You dont agree certain areas need improving. Fair enough.
    But I am surprised that suggeting ways to make TKD better is such a sore point. Flabbergasted even.

    Have fun arguing with the imaginary man who thinks TKD is crap,lame,utterly useless, a troll, doesnt train it or trains it crap.. somewhere in this post i have probably realy said something I am yet to find out.
  18. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    I did say ''depth'' in my very first post on this thread and in countless others. I still got grief. Go and look.

    The big but is I have not said it sucks, or isnt usefull or doesnt work, or crap.Where have I said that about TKD elbows? Or any area (except gun defence which is bull).. Go through all my posts and find where I have. How many times do I have to say it lol.
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2012
  19. cloystreng

    cloystreng Valued Member

    My fault on that, its a really long thread. I must have mixed posts around in my head.

    About gun defense. Its interesting. In the ITF encyclopedia, it just says essentially "You're screwed." And something about needing to be really fast and that you shouldn't have gotten into that situation.

    I think this thread has run its course. We all agree with Sketco that taekwondo is, as he called it, "environmentally impractical" because of the panda poaching required to make the white and black doboks.
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2012
  20. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    No need for that now! Or are you refering to a different style of TKD?

    Well, I gave you the chance at an easy response by asking directly and saying "so the methods are not lame right?" - you have failed to respond!

    LOL.. no offence, but if your gonna jump up and down and stamp your feet if I don't exactly quote you word for word, instead chosing to summarise how you come across in your numerous posts, then well, you know.. cap fits and all that! Your not seriously offended by that are you? ... seriously?

    If you say so ol professional one! I know exactly what Im talking about when it comes to elbows in TKD and how TKD and my school train them... just cos its different to you and your opinions on them, it doesnt make you right and all the other systems wrong.. just different. Just cos your 'other' system emphasises the point of the elbow/cutting it doesnt mean its the only way or even the best way TBH.. just the prefered way for that system.

    Firstly, lol at you moaning and groaning about me using the word 'baby', when you can use 'WTF' and 'Gun Toss'.. oh well! And as discussed before.. its no where near the same... as one is lacking (IMO) and the other isnt (IMO) - that said, as Ive said all along, happy for improvements, I just feel that what TKD has is okay, and people can improve it if they wish.

    I feel certain areas can do be improved and other areas need improving - theres a difference... All areas can be improved, but many, as they are now are fine too - thats all.

    I already am, thanks ;)
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