Errr... correct me if I`m wrong (cos I havnt check back on the tread), but didnt you say something along the lines of "saying there in there, just cos they are in patterns doesnt make them in there and its a misrepresentation to say that" - alluding that a TKD person shouldnt say they are there, if they are not being trained at all! - Splitting hairs a bit mate! How can an untrained technqiue be the same standard as a trained technique!!!! Even if it doesnt reach you heady heights of what constitutes 'decent'!!! I dont have to show anything... or do you mean in the text of this discussion (which would make more sense), if so.. I can say the same of you! No... should I have? Or more to the point, why would I have.. heck, I couldnt even find that throwing vid to show you and that was quite popular a few years back! Though I have it on VHS.. probibly some other stuff too Well, as TKD was, from its very beginning, always influenced by all types of things... I`d say its pretty normal.. besides, it what seem that if you saw something decent, you would decide its been 'influenced' and if you saw something poor you would decide it 'hasnt been influenced', so a case cant be made either way now! Hell, theres a video clip of me from 20 years ago, when I was working out alone, on a heavy bag where I'm using elbows, both in shadow sparring and on the bag (and even some conditioning work)... not much influence back then - just TKD!! So that would disprove your point straight away! (And yes, its online ) And I can confidently say your wrong.. my instructor taught me elbows (not just in patterns), AFAIA he didnt train in other arts (moreso as back then people didnt or rarely cross trained), and his first instructor was GM Rhee.. cant say how much Ive been influenced or not, as I`ve always loved training with others and look for ways to make things more productive... but it doesnt change the fact I was first shown them by someone who wouldnt have had similar 'influences'. LOL... 'to a degree' meaning most of what you wrote, just probibly not as indepth as say an art that has them as a main tool!But still decent enough IMO Its you reading that doesnt add up.... I said the sparring can be heavy, though the elbows must be controlled (ie. pulled/light contact if to the head/face/spine etc.) Splitting hairs again. Speed + Mass = Power... sorry for not being more precise in my terminology of things! Actually, most TKD technqiues work on speed.. because Speed + Mass = Power.. its in the good book you know (the equation that is) :woo: And... Did anyone say the only training is standing there with a pad, elbowing it!!! No.. I said that was one method employed amongst other things! LOL... people make comments about many things, whether fully informed or not.. many are either one-sided, ill-informed or biased!