TOG TKD

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Sketco, Jan 11, 2012.

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  1. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    I disagree on some points. Martial arst were taught to only the rich in some places.They were introduced into the Japanese army in the early 1900's to creat soldiers that would die for thier country, no questions asked. They were simplified alot to teach many people at the same time. It was more about making the spirit, like you say, than turning soldiers into lethal hand to hand fighters.
    I dont agree about the wrestling,boxing, judo part being actualy put into TKD because its just not in the sylabus that you have to show competance in those things, to show competance in TKD. If they trained them seperate then its a different thing altogether.

    During SD and one step these kinds of things are shown and Person can do and try what they like, buts not specified you have to show good Judo, boxing and wrestling. If you did it would be great.The truth is during one step or SD it is often low standard Judo type things or (wrestling or boxing ,if you want to claim thats what it is in there).
    If I go off and train wrestling and Judo and boxing and then use those during my SD or one step, which I do and is what people like Kim bok man are saying they did, then that is different to saying it is in TKD.
     
  2. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Heres a pick of GM Kim, in his TKD days!

    Looks like he was already doing locks and defending against guns - something people often say also isnt in TKD! :rolleyes:


    Stuart
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    [
    Master Kim remembered how, back in the early 1950’s, Taekwondo technique was lim ited and still more or less based on karate. It – was that which motivat- ed him to systematise and develop the an. In fact he claims that he is the real technical founder of Taekwond.

    He incessantly discussed technique with his fellow instructors and he developed defensive techniques by having people attack him with knife, bayonet and baton. He also trained with yudo (judo) experts, studying their throwing techniques and then working out defences against them
    how he would occasionally work out with boxers,
    and which techniques to use against boxing punches.

    He says that and more here
    http://www.mixed-martial-arts-training.org/the-life-and-travels-of-master-kim-bok-man


    Yes I have and it was not very practical. At the time I thought it was, but now I realise it was not good.

    Ck Choi, Rhee ki ha, Kim Bok man, basicaly every 'original' I read about or from what they say or show or have shown or told to their students who I have contact or trained with.


    All those above, General Choi, all the major orgs,instructors. The sylabus.If all those are not doing what you claim they should be and they are passing grades etc etc then take it up with them.
    Dont give me all this ' your school was not good or your not doing the curriclum' bull. My instructor was graded under General Choi, Hee Ill choi and others, trained with Willie lim and Ck choi, so I f what they pass on to him and hence he passes on, is not up to scrath it is all their faults. I have taken all that training and my conclusions are what I am saying.I have seen what others in TKD offer and the conclusions are what I am saying.
    TKD is not crap but its not what alot claim and there some areas need seriuose tweeking before it can claim competance in those areas as part of TKD.
     
  4. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Yes.. that was Gen Choi's influence, before GM Kim came on the scene no doubt!

    So he states he developed it beyond what was said above - thats the impression I got as well.

    Thought you didnt like chopping out certain bits of texts so it reads how you want it too! Anyway... sure.. it says he trained with them to develop defences against them... not that he was taught Judo by a Judo instructor, boxing by a boxing instructor etc. And all this was AFTER he was taken on as a main developer of TKD (as the interview says). I see that as a good way to develop your art.. and either way, it shows these things were incorported into TKD early on!

    Thanks - I just read it. Wierd link that, as Lenny Ludlam (mentioned at the bottom of the interview) was a friend of mine who passed away a few years ago!


    LOL.. really! maybe learning from GM Kim would have been better in this instance! :cool:

    LOL.. so your saying that they said that free sparring was like WTF with hands.. when WTF didnt even exsist at that time!! Do you see how much sense that doesnt make!!! Furthermore, I have interviewed and spoke to quite a few pioneers and none of them said that! You say these people.. so either you have spoken with them directly or read it from an interview with them and if the later, please show a link! Im sure some sparring was similar to that, but not all, as thats why it was termed 'free sparring'!


    You mention the syllabus, yet you do not seem to know it all that well (no offence).

    Why should I! Its not my problem.. my focus is on my students, my school and the art.. not what anyone else does! maybe you should take it up with them instead - seeing as your their student!

    Did I say that! Nope!

    Well obviously your not! :bang:

    TAGB then eh! :p

    Perhaps! lol

    If you say so! (did you get the joke there?) :evil:

    Each to his own... and I would agree some schools do need major tweaking... but obvioulsy you can't 'tweak' something thats not there to begin with eh! :evil:

    Stuart
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2012
  5. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    While the general history of MAs in not an area of speciality for me, my overall point was that prior to the 1880s (Judo) & 1920s (Karate) the MAs were not like they were today, with schools in every strip mall, youth & rec. centers. In Korea there were virtually no MAs at all. The 1st MAs schools tom open were Judo, which is pretty much the way it was elsewhere with respect to Eastern MAs. Even US President T. Roosevelt did Judo at the turn of the century. So the original 5 civilian Kwans & the military Kwan were basically teaching rudimentary Korean Karate. It changed along the way in various forms, speed & emphasis where today the civilian Kwans have Olympic TKD & the military evolved into ITF TKD.
    I am only writing about ITF TKD. It was a consolidated or mix of the MAs & fighting systems available to them at the time. It was not an equal mix, as the primary influence was karate. This mix also depended on the individual instructor. But yes Gen. Choi's system is fairly complete on paper, with glaring shortcomings which need to be filled by training under the required realistic conditions, given obvious safety concerns. This is where imnsho the falling short is a wide W I D E gap. So you are correct in your critique. I & Mr. Anslow seem to differ on where the blame is to go. Thrift be told there is enough blame to go around, from Gen. Choi down to the individual white belt newbie student.
    His books are pretty thorough & the early official training films had in them a 5th degree Judo instructor who was also ITF TKD in them demonstrating Judo & Hapkido instructor adding Hapkido to the 1972 text. It is there, it is just not applied or just touched upon which may make it worse, as it really becomes make believe go along fake SD.
    The key as I see it & I think Mr. Anslow sees it is IMPLEMENTATION!
    I think that if one trains under as realistic conditions as possible, with no rules, then one can't help IMHO to move toward real SD skills. Now in order to supplement or make weak areas stronger, one may have to & should if needed consult those with greater experience or depth. Some call this cross training, I just call it TKD SD, as it was always there, but not deep enough, as you correctly point out. But to me that is just semantics.
     
  6. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Apologies... I missed this earlier (though not sure how as its massive lol)


    It would take too long to explain if you dont get it in the first place! Let move on!


    Stuff in some of your previous posts! I thought that was obvious by now!

    I`m not tryingt o discredit you or your posts at all.. i simply disagree with some of what you have said! And forums arnt for that, they are for discussions.. and that is what I have been doing.. just cos I agree/disagree with things, I/you can still discuss them!

    Most of you views that you have listed here I guess. But no, Im not dipping back through 18 pages of thread to pick out those points! I already suggested we leave it for others to form their own opinions!

    Is that why you posted paragraphs in the wrong order from the inhteview with GM Kim you linked.. was that to make your point or an accident!

    See.. now this is where I think your contention lies in this area - you see the grading syllabus as the whole curriculium, where as I see it as an area of the whole system. So, to answer your question (which I had done already) yes I have added to the original grading system, with items from the original syllabus. So, in your eyes I have changed the grading/gradable syllabus.. but I havnt changed the syllabus.. i just made sure certain areas became gradable, so focus is placed upon them in training!

    See above. I havnt changed the original syllabus for training - i simply made non-gradable parts gradable - for a reason!

    I actually simply disagreed about your wide-spread overcoat for all of TKD - my argument was based on the fact that its the clubs/org.. not the sytsem thats at fault and for those that have recognised that fact, your 'one coat covers alll' system doesnt apply!


    Again your getting confused with the 'grading' requirements and the syllabus/curriculum. The system is much bigger than what the grading syllabus requires.. whereby some clubs include the missing bits, other orgs simply work on the grading requirments as the only bits and other clubs, like mine, have made those bits gradable to ensure they are practiced to a higher degree and thus become better than a simple afterthought or 'demo' move for a display!

    Just to be clear.. no one (including me) has said TKD incorporates all of Judo.. just some Judo techniques (which made them TKD techniques as well) - like i said, the standard they are trained at can vary, but they are definatly in the system. Your argument is that of all the clubs, in all the land, all thr throws are crap and thus shouldnt be mentioned as part of TKD - I disagreed with that, as I know quite a few TKD clubs that do throws and to a decent standard.


    Unless that standard isnt as low as you presume!!!

    Stealing from Judo is a good idea if your club doesnt cover this aspect, one I agree with, as its actually bring something back into TKD that was there already already. However, its not neccesary if a club covers it (to a decent quality) already, except if a student wishes to fine tune it somewhat I guess.

    I did have a quick look round YouTube but couldnt find it. Perhaps TKDStudent knows of a link!


    We are not discussing demo's.. we are discussing training! But like i said

    Errr.. your the one who spoke of loads of clips!!! I said I hadnt seen any and asked for links!

    Whats sudden about it? The fact I havnt seen any could be for a number of reasons, the first of which is I havnt looked for any! Ive seen the one I mentioned and thats cos someone posted it on a forum somewhere, not cos I scoured YouTube to find TKD throwing videos! Furthermore, I didnt make commentry on whether individual clubs techniques are good enough or not, just the fact that its in the syllabus - cos they are! I have gone through this already and see no point in repeating everything!


    Well, thats a new one on me!!

    Didnt we discuss this already! AFAIA boxing came in with the advent of the sport side of things. I think it would be a good thing to have part of a grading requiring some competence in this area, though Gen Choi didnt believe in competition, so maybe thats why he didnt include it! I also siad earlier that it should be included in the manuals, as its a fairly large part of TKD!

    You are refering to the technqiues in patterns right? Well, if you know my stuff, you know I dont make those sort of claims at all, in fact I dont believe those sort of techniques (in the patterns) were originally punches at all - pre-TKD days of course!


    Read loads of interviews and chatted to many. Why would they say that, seeing as the WTF wasnt even around when TKD free sparring was first done - do you see the conudrum here!

    So you spoke to a bloke who spoke to....lol Seriously, did your mate ask them about the boxing techniques?

    Okay, let me break it down for you. The syllabus is the way to teach the system. Its simply how the complete system is broken down for teaching purposes. A syllabus that focuses on the system will include stuff often required at a grading (which you refer to as the grading syllabus). So no, I havnt changed the syllabus/system, I simply added stuff to make it a grade requirement as I realised many 9though not all0 focused mainly on gradeable areas.


    Well hopefully you will now, as I explained it above.

    Its not a statement at all as I never said that. But, General Choi wrote down his system right.. its in a 15 Volume book - that book includes throws, takedowns, knees, elbows etc. So you tell me what is right and what is wrong eh! I teach TKD how I think it should be done, based on the system devised by Gen Choi - no more, no less!


    No, i havnt taken anything personally at all! I just dislike me or TKD being tar with the same brush as some of the stuff out there - not cos I want to defend them, but because I know all TKD isnt like that!


    Its not about me at all - its about your experience of TKD Vs Mine + what the system comprises of Vs What is trained and to what quality so 9in your opinion) one can say "oh, TKD has knees" etc. I's say NUTSHELL! You?

    Sure. Though the one difference is that you can easily find stuff out about me to help your arguments etc. I cant do the same about you, so simply stick to what I do know - that of TKD and my school and my experienecs in the TKD world.

    Not entirely sure what this was about but ... You say TKD shouldnt say it teaches knees, as its not up to 'your' standard - I simply said a) TKD has knees as part of its system, so can claim it and b) not all schools have the low standard in the areas you talk of cos they only focus on certain aspects of the system. Now if you said 'Some schools' shouldnt claim to teach them, then I`d agree.. but again I`d argue they are not doing the sull system either!


    Not touche at all.. I have many up and they are easy to find and accessible - you have none that I know of!

    Is that your reason lol... isnt it the same for everyone.. what was decent one year ago, looks less than so when we look back on it! And everyone is still learning and refining, or they should be!


    is there many 'strret fight' clips of Thai Boxers out there then or are you refering to ring sports again?

    I agree with that. Im not trying to sell you on anything your not comfortable with. When we train, we train pretty realistically for certain stuff and short of heading outside for a punch up, thats about as close as one can really get!


    I thik your a bit paranoid! The one thing about MAP is that people tend to speak their own minds - so whether they support your opinions, my opinions or disagree with both - they are not 'forum pals'! thats troll speak my friend.. seen it before!

    Yes.. you`ve given that argument before! Just because someone doent agree with you, it doent mean they are in conflict with their beliefs.. just they believe it or believe it to be correct! You can think that if you wish, if it makes you feel more justified, thats up to you. And your loving that word "Framing" in this post arent you lol



    Well, rest assured, thats not the case and my past history should show you that - as there is much in TKD that I argue against! As Ive said throughout this thread, I dont disagree with all you`ve said, I just dont agree that its always 100% valid!

    I seem to have lots of problems according to you!



    Okay, fair enough!


    So why even mention about someone having a vested interest in it for the sake of fame or money then? Hmmmmm!



    You miss my point! As I said, its not about you not putting your real name, its about me doing so, because when i discuss things, I believe in them and dont have any need to hide behind a false name.


    Stuart
     
  7. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag New Member Supporter

    So do you want TKD to do this or do you want TKD to be one big system that includes everything and the kitchen sink?

    MMA, for example, is not a 'style'. It is very much a conglomeration of styles. They quite often train things separately. The schedule at a school will have BJJ, Boxing, MT, Wrestling, MMA all listed separately. In other words they focus on one aspect of 'the game' during that class. The MMA class tries to put the puzzle together showing how the various pieces would interlock with each other.

    But your complaint is that TKD can't deliver it all in one class?

    You need to focus the training to develop skill in that particular area. You can't be all over the place. Especially when you are starting out and your instinct is to go all wild rather than calmly focusing on developing skills (hence why it is better to train grappling with no strikes at first so you'll actually try and learn positions rather than just flail a GnP because you don't know how to do anything else...)

    Now obviously if a style becomes so specialized it ceases to be practical (IE submissions that wouldn't work if someone can GnP you) it is a problem. And there is always a danger of this. ITF TKD has the annoying habit of the one legged hop whilst throwing a plethora of round kicks. Yes it works under certain tournament rules. Is it impractical? Yes! Should TKDist do it? No. But the answer is not to radically change TKD but to think of practical application and avoid (as best as possible) pitfalls like these. And of course WTF also has things that work great under tournament rules but also fall under the impractical 'real life' application pitfall.
     
  8. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    You should reference that picture just for clarity.
    He looks older than he would be if it was his early TKD days to me , it could be from his other style.

    I dont want to get into gun defence because I think its a load of bull and I hope to god no one is teaching it within TKD.
    Locks I have not disputed, it is the standard of them and the standard of training that I have discussed There needs to be more clarity and honesty rather now just saying ' TKD contains locks'. IMO.

    Its the same with the gun defence. I would find it hard to dispute that some TKD practitioners taught them ,obviously because theres a picture for a start, but I could dispute the quality and have the argument for them not being in the sylabus because you dont have to show competance in it to pass grades under high graded people.
    I could also argue he is training that seperatly away from TKD like he says he did with Judo.
    There is a part on SD while you sit on a sofa in the encyclopedia ( its hilariouse) so should I say that if you dont do that, then you are not training real TKD?

    There has been a move in recent years to portray that alot are not practising proper TKD when actualy they are because they are doing it as laid out by general Choi and others. Its almost like a put down to say it. The truth is alot is in TKD but some, SOME, is to a poor standard or is not very indepth. Some have admited it yet some seem to be creating this illusion that there is a original TKD thats beyond hardcore and is basicaly on a par ,if not better than modern styles. Possibly because of the advent of MMA, I dont know, or for other reasons. Maybe some realy believe it or theres other reasons.

    I dont think its helpfull and right even, for reasons I have said.
     
  9. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

     
  10. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Its from his book "Prcatical Tae Kwon Do".. is that clarity enough! the clues in the title :cool:

    We do at my school actually! But to be fair, the techniques we use were taught by an Army SD officer.. I dont have much faith in the old MA ones (same with knife stuff) - though some of KBM's are decent.. I simply see it as an 'update' by using more modern methods, which keeps it inline with the syllabus, but up to date!
    Disclaimer: Before you jump to conclusions, I say TKD does include defence against weapons.. I just dont liek them, so chose to learn about them in more detail both from military and LEO's (US based) - and I tell my students exactly that - where they come from and why i dont like the 'traditional' ones!

    A) If it contains it and someone teaches it.. its a fair thing to say
    B) If one school teaches them well and another poorly.. do you expect them to diffieniate.. or for the poorly school to say they teach them poorly! What should the school who teaches them well say?

    Seeing as TKD came out the military, and you have major big books like KBM's.. it would be hard to dispute. But I agree (as I have done all along) that a) some would not teach them b) others may do, but not well.. but again, that doesnt NOT make them part of the system!

    Right, I get you now... so in your opinion, if its not part of a grading.. its not part of the syllabus.. despite being listed in a great big book of TKD! Well, thats sort of (just sort of) the reason I updated my syllabus.. but by your reckoning, people like Miyamoto Musashi wouldnt even be counted as a martial artist as he never graded!!! I always thought martial arts was a personal journey and gradings were just a means to an end to get on in this modern world! They are not all encompasing, and as more and more associations grew.. more was dropped to make them easier. The TAGB for example do not do breaking until after black belt, yet breaking is very much a part of TKD for all grades!

    He says he trained against Judo exponents to learn defences against their techniques!

    Sure.. its funny (I know the chapter), yet seated hosinsul is very much part of TKD and taught/practiced at dan level at our school (graded at 2nd degree).

    Is there? Are they? Hmmmm...

    Or honesty that wasnt allowed before due to the associations death grips!

    Agreed. but its not all TKD schools or TKD the system.. just orgs, instructors and clubs!

    I dont think by defending what we do and the system, that we are trying to portray a 'beyond hardcore' type of thing. TKD, in its original guise is rough and tough and does contain quite a bit of stuff.. thats all! It has been watered down for sure!

    Actually, I think its more down to the watering down aspect within TKD, as opposed to MMA.

    Really.. you should have said! But you leave a conundrum in that those that teach that stuff and teach it to a decent standard, shouldnt, for some reason be allow to claim its TKD because of those that don't/or do at a poor standard!


    Stuart
     
  11. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    I think that there have been some very good points here, like it is really important to have the all out or free sparring part of the grading process. If it is not listed as a testing requirement the reality is that it may not ever get down. So that is a good or necessary starting point.
    Now even before that, these things must also be listed somewhere in the written syllabus, ie the textbooks. I believe it is, but not emphasized enough & not stated clearly enough with sufficient direction & guidance.
    (Again I am only talking about ITF as that is where my most intensive study has concentrated on. This in no way should be seen as a slag on WTF or Kukki TKD or any other style operating under the TKD label!)

    I will try to restate from a very basic & fundamental platform:
    ITF TKD offers a lot to students who wish to pursue serious study in it. Like any other endeavor a lot will depend on your own personal diligence. Naturally you have to find a competent instructor at a strong school that will have a focus on reality based SD.

    ITF TKD stated purpose is to build a more peaceful world. It tries to help this goal more of a reality by building strong students of high moral character. These ethical students will then stand on the side of justice, helping to make the world a bit better. Now I know that sounds corny, but it is all in the textbook & has been for a long time.
    I would think that most schools do not focus on this aspect.

    ITF TKD's primary physical aim is to build strong SD skills. In fact by the time a person earns a I Dan BB they are expected to be able to handle themselves against a single attacker.

    ITF TKD did start out as a KMA whose primary purpose was SD. It was a MA created by Koreans in the ROK Army that had various levels of exposure, experience & talent in the fighting systems available to them at that point in time. It must also be remembered that Korea was a very poor place that was rife with turmoil in the streets with lawlessness being the norm. You were either tough or you got hurt or simply eaten up. Thugs & gangsters ruled the streets. The US Military occupation govt tried to sort things out, but that caused even more turmoil as Koreans had already been oppressed under a long time brutal rule by Japan.
    Eventually an authoritarian govt led by a USA approved Rhee, who some called a puppet of the Americans, ruled by iron hand. Remember that the Chung Do Kwan founder GM Lee Won Kuk was persecuted by this regime.then of course the Korean Civiil War broke out, which led to the almost total destruction of the country. This was when TKD was 1st developed!

    Once ITF TKD went to the civilian side & was exported abroad, SD & Eastern discipline were major reasons why Westerners were attracted. This globalization took place at the time the West was caught up in the MAs craze. Poor Koreans stared to make a lot of cash money & were treated like royalty in many places. Next came the kiddie invasion with opened the doors & filled the tills with more cash. So naturally emphasis on tough SD dwindled at the same time SK was involved in a massive push to make TKD an Olympic SPORT.

    ITF TKD was led by Gen. Choi who emphasized his patterns & how he wanted them performed. While he was successful in creating a true world-wide following where some 100+ countries were doing exactly what he wanted. This was accomplished to a point where some 50+ nations could show up for a WC & the winner in Tul competition would be the one who performed closest to the true world-wide international standard he himself set. Truly a remarkable goal that the WTF/KKW is now doing with its Poomsae WCs.
    ITF TKD also has tournament rules sparring & 3 other categories of competition. So far to many imnsho place way too much emphasis on this sport focus.
    All of this has impacted why ITF TKD has deviated from their roots & purposes. A lot of blame is to go around. However all one has to do is follow the syllabus as outlined in the 15 volumes AND train with as much realism as practical.

    I think once SD is the focus, then people will come to understand their limitations & seek to find ways to strengthen any shortcomings they have. This is where the rubber will hit the road. So if students under the guidance of their instructor can not sort it out, then guest instructors with more experience in these areas have to be brought in.
    Now some may call that cross training. Fine! I just call it SD. So ITF TKD has SD as the most important core physical focus. But it has not been applied & when attempts were made to work it in, it is often misapplied. Forget about names, labels, uniforms, patterns, formalities, sports rules etc.! SD is SD! So to me it doesn't matter how you go about it, but SD basically is protecting yourself in situations where there are no rules. Train like that as a focus of your so called SD training regiment, with of course following obvious safety concerns & the rest will almost take care of itself.
     
  12. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    This makes me laugh. I am saying virtualy the same thing but about other areas of TKD and your trying to make out I am saying TKD is crap or that it doesnt contain this or that.

    And gun defence? Oh dear. I struggle to take anyone seriouse who believes in that.

    I responded to the long post further but lost it. That didnt make me laugh
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2012
  13. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    The difference is, weapons defence in TKD, like most Martial Arts is for advanced students and the stuff your talking about is general bread and butter stuff in the main (knee's, elbows etc.). Furthermore, I felt this area needed an update as most of the stuff was based on 1950's/1960's weapons/tactics of the time (military type weapons like long rifles, bayonets etc.) so was out dated.. which is why I sort out more up to date methods via instructors in that field. The knees and elbows and how they work/what damage they do work exactly the same as they did then though! Like I also said, I just didnt like them (meaning I didnt feel they were viable enough) - but I do like the stuff your on about and do consider it viable!

    So you dont believe anyone can defend against a gun pointed at you at close range? Its not dodging bullets or defending sniper attacks you know lol

    No.. but it did me :) I know, I`ve done it enough lol
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2012
  14. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Yep. Easy to disarm a gunman..happens all the time;


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PX4UYN_a9I&feature=player_detailpage#t=100s"]Equilibrium Gun Katas - YouTube[/ame]
     
  15. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

  16. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    ^^^^THIS made me chuckle....^^^^

    No one, FROM ALL of my gunman observations;

    Has EVER

    * stood so straight,

    * with their arm out so far,

    * stance so rigid,

    * so close in front of (or in the range of)

    I have seen Gunman in action (and I have been mugged by a few gunners)

    Physical Gun defense is not the "magic bullet"
     
  17. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Yet those that teach it and use such stuff on a regular basis.. don't even crack a smile!

    Well Haganh and other Israeli arts are built from neccesity... and experience of whats needed vs what works! Still, guess you know better!

    That said a) that was just an example of something more down the line of what was mentioned b) A debate on gun defence should be on a different thread!

    None of those that teach it proclaim that. They mostly talk 'final last chance defence'.
     
  18. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

     
  19. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    No.
    I have no compliant and I dont want anything.
    MMA is different.

    TKD contains lots of things but not all of it is to a good standard. The drills and training methods. I am suggesting to get better standards steal from those that do know good drills and training and incorporate them.
    If a TKD club spents 15 minutes in a class everyweek doing throws it is better if those 15 minutes are made as usefull as possible with proper Judo drills and training.

    I dont have time to fuly respond to everyone sorry.
     
  20. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    I see, but it is a sweeping generalsation to just say TKD contains, wresling boxing and Judo. It does contain throws, sweeps, locks, takedowns and striking with the hands but it is ridiculus in my eyes to realy call it wrestling, judo and boxing. TKD does not contain training drills or methods from these styles, which it would if it seriosly contained them.

    Another point is that if you think about it deeper, what kind of wrestling was in Korea at that time, what was the level of boxing like...etc etc.? It needs more clarifty or it can gives an impression that TKD guys were fighting Dan gable or sugar ray robinson or something. Just because Kim bok man did some Judo and boxing and proberly taught it or showed and put techniques in, it does not mean he put th drills or training methods or funfamentals of those style into TKD. Actualy, we know he didnt or they would be there now or somewhere in the system or curriculum or what ever it gets called.
     
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