TOG TKD

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A well performed back kick is like getting hit by a train lol. And I really doubt many people could see that coming/stop it. And it is not so open like the spin hook kick.

I am still a noob here, but IMHO, the back kick is a good self defense tool.

 

<3 kwonkicker his tutorials are brilliant!

 

I suppose that is just your experience, then.

 

Nope. not in the "real world"

If done, it is L.U.C.K.

 

Yep. Over 40 years of

 

Same!

Or maybe some TKD folk simply don't agree with you!

Nope.. thats what you get when you type into a computer!

errr.. thats what I said.. I read what you type and take what you are saying! I`m not changing anything.. if you come across that way, so be it.. not saying you are one, but thats how trolls are routed out!

Ah well! I tried telling ya.. if you don't want to acknowledge it, thats entirely up to you!

If you don't like what you have posted quoted and responded to.. don't post it! Its that simple! Personally, as I said, I find it easier to keep track of things. If you want to read something else into it, again, thats up to you.

Whilst i agree with you 2nd point, I disagree with your first.. and though I cant speak for other schools, out gradings hav throwing/falling as part of them - at Dan level. That said, some of the pioneers of TKD were BB judoka as well!

Guess you havnt been to the right school then!

No its not the only way.. it may be if you wanted to RE-incorporate that part of the syllabus!

Okay.. from your experience I get that.. though its an incorrect assumption still!

Disagree all you like... a good standard overall is good.. sure the highest standard in each area is preferable, though unlikely to happen.. so a good standard overall is better than a high standard in one area and low standards in another! It reminds me of a chat ona self protection forum.. where they were dicussing fitness in relation to SD.. everyone agreed, that a good level of fitness is preferable for SD.. but it neednt be anywhere near that of a pro-fighter... which you would term the higher standard! And once that point is reach, other areas take preference!

So we're agreed then.. the elbows, knees etc in TKD are perfectly adequate if trained to a reasonable level.. thats good then!

Who's to say you higher one isn't equal to what I consider a reasonable standard! Its only your assumptions that make you feel they couldnt be!

Actually it does.. fairly often! Like i said, im not disagreeing that everyone couldnt train anything better if afforded the time.. but decent is decent and thats not poor.. and decent often cuts the mustard!

Sure... so!

LOL at your conflicting sentences here!

yet when i do, you seem to argue that I dont! Go figure!

LOL.. is that your argument now.. your right, I`m wrong cos Im too close to TKD.. thats poor man.. real poor.. weak too! If thats the case, then what I say is null and void and you should take a chill pill then! Personally, I feel I`m in a better position to judge it then you, as I do it, have done for 20 years and to a decent quality.. without be closed off to other styles/systems/technqiues!

Look, I can see your getting angsty cos I`m not agreeing with your rightous words.. so best we leave it there hey! Those reading the thread can make up their own minds, based on what is written, just like you like it!

Stuart

 

My main point has been that TKD has areas not up to the standard of other arts that specialise more in those areas. Everyone has agreed that it is an obviouse point including you.
My other points have been that TKD practitioners should go and train in those arts to gain the knowledge and training of howto train and put them back into to TKD. Thats where most differ, yet some do agree but say they dont have the time.So its not that cut and dry.
I am actualy unsure what your disagreeing with me about as half of this has been me trying to get you to see the points I have actualy made rather than the ones your making up or assuming I am making.
Like you say, people can make their own minds up and its clear in words what I am saying.

If I said I eat Chinese food but dont like how they do english food, so Instead I go to an english restraunt or to a chinese chef who has trained in english cooking,by your reconing I am saying Chinese food is crap.
How narrow minded and ridiculas is that.
Like you say,let people make their ownminds up.

I have proved on several occasion where you made up what I said or re-interpreted it back as worse than it is, creating an unintentional disagreement.

That doesnt make sense.

I did not post some of what you posted, HELLO.
No, I dont like my post taken out of context. Its pointless. Its just wrong. Its bull. Its not helpfull to the discussion. Its not fitting in with the post or points. Who wants people like that on a forum.

Yea, your grading system. Not the original one or the one laid out. Your updating or creating a grading system and adding. incorporating and updating and adding is what I have been on about. HELLO. Yes some were Judoka but they didnt put it in the sylabus very well or it would be in there now.

That old chestnut. No. Nor are any in existance. The Judo type training and application seen in every TKD place incuding all the clips on youtube are not very good. A school that trains TKD and Judo or whos intructor is judo graded will be better but thats different.Thats what I would like to see. And still I have rarely seen that.
So when clips are shown of what TKD people think is good Judo type stuff it is often not and so is open to critisism,including constructive especialy from those who do know something about Judo.

Whats the other way?
Re-incorporate? Yea because Judo was there and wrestling was and boxing and god knows what else. Bull. Stop re making history.
CK Choi and Rhee Ki Ha dont make those claims and they were there.

TKD is neither crap nor does it contain every element alot would have others believe, just to give it more standing. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

Its not unlikely at all. All it takes is less ego and a willingness to be a beginer again.

For a basic SD situation against a low to average skilled person then,yes, we agree.

Because I have seen your clips and others posted of what you consider good applications. I know thats not a great thing to say and will not go down well, I am just being honest. Sorry.

I dont see that, i would need it explained.

No thats not my argument.
Of course you feel that way. I wouldnt expect anything less.
I feel I am better to judge as I do TKD and to a decent quality and I have trained in others too and seen the difference in training and quality in certain areas. And by simply learning and accepting others do it better seen how fairly easy it is to fix.
I have no bias either way nor do I make money or am looking for fame or recognition.

 

Well both are in short supply in TKD! Ha ha.

 

Yup.. they can. Which is why I havnt responded to this particular point - as its been covered already!

You anology is wrong.. it would make sense if you were considering swapping TKD for another art, but not in this context. It should read.. if were were chinese and dont enjoy chinese food, find a way to make it tastier.. not jump ship to an English resturant!!!

Yup.. thats what I said! :bang:

No unintentional disagreements, they were intentional, cos I disagree! And I havnt made anything up... I did (once) acknowledge something you didnt say (by accident), but then corrected it for all to see when I realised. Like i said, I take it how I see it!

maybe not to you! LOL. Never mind!

I can ONLY quote what you have posted. Sure i misinterpreted one piece, but corrected it as soon as I realised my mistake.. apart from that, everything is quoted exactly how you said it - I replied how I read it!

My grading system is based on the TKD curriculium.!!

The original grading system had flaws IMO, as it was playing 'catch up' to the karate world. All I have done is take stuff from the syllabus and make it gradeable because I realise folk place more emphasis (in training) on that which is graded!

Not adding.. just making it proper.. as explained above!

well hello sailor :heart:

I suggest you research you TKD history then.. because Judo and Hapkido guys influenced & made up a big part of the syllabus/manuals! Theres a clip somewhere of one such fellow... if anyone wants to post it, go ahead. Hes a TKD pioneer who looks every bit as 'judo' as a 'judo' guy!!!

You could only say that if you have visited EVERY TKD school.. so it remains.. I guess you havnt been to the right school then! hell, a friends WTF school in the US teaches throws.. you really need to get out more!

Never seen any Judo type TKD clips on youtube, except the one i mentioned above.. please add a link so I know what your on about!

Sure.. though it doesnt change the fact that TKD incorporates throws in it syllabus! How they are trained is a different matter entirely, as if trained as intended.. they should be decent enough considering the dan grade pedigree of those that incorported them in the first place!
, under the bequest of Gen. Choi!

well.. I look forward to reviewing the links.. then get back to ya on that!

Errr.. if its there to begin with!!!

Nope.. not wrestling.. boxing was incorporated later (as discussed).. Judo was there from the off-set however! I`m not remaking history, I`m simply telling you the history you should be aware of as a TKD practioner!

they dont not make them either... not a solid agrument my friend. Have you ever asked them directly! Kim Bok man and others do make such a claim however.. maybe you should read his book and see!!!

Couldnt agree more.. except you are talking of schools and how they teach, not the system itself. I represent the sytem.. not every school in the UK!

And time!

Except, you know little about me. My life experiences are incorported into my teaching/training. I rarely speak about them on public forums, Mitch mention one example.. but I have many others! I lived and ran/run my school in the toughest estate in the area, once know as the 'South Bronx of Harrow'. In my 12 years running it there, we had regular vists from druggies, drug dealers, pikees etc. and thats just the club, my personal experiences has shaped me as a martial artists. And your wrong.. the avergae bad boy isnt low to average at all... which is why I dont except low to average in my school when training! But I`ll tell you this.. my boxing skills may not equate to a pro-boxer if placed on some machine or even in a boxing match.. but they can certainly KO someone in a street fight.. I will tell you that now.. because I know it 100% (I`m sure you can figure out why)! And that is the stuff I teach!

Feel free to show me yours then!

Thats fine... no need to say sorry. I dont expect everyone to like them.. I actually post them for other TKD students/schools TBH (well sorta).. that said, my students are testament to the way we train... in 12 years or so, only one has had a bad run in SD and thats cos he was tipsy and outnumbered with a knife involved. Others have fared better than well! I`d say that speaks for itself, no matter how a video clip comes across!

re-read it then. Though it doesnt add to this discussion. But what you can't see, other can!

Hmm.. me thinks it was!!!

LOL.. a pat on the back to say 'here here, hope you feel better.. but.. " LOL

As have I .. so why is your point better than mine?

I dont disagree.. but only if it needs fixing in the first place!

Are you saying I am? LOL.. I was fighting TKD's weaknesses long before I released any books.. thats another weak argumemt!


Stuart

Ps. notice how I always sign my real name. I never hide (not that I`m saying you shouldn't), just to make the point that I stand behind what I say!

 

Go on Stu!
I'm interested and if you're asked to do it it's not bragging or sensationalising.

 

Luck is a skill. I can't remember the fighter but one of them said, "the more prepared I am the 'luckier' I seem to get."

 

LUCK is not a skill...:cry:


"Pure TKD"?

 

Like I said, I dont chat about them in public. The couple of times I have were during heated debates to prove a point. Email me if you want, so its kept between us, as these things have a habit of coming back to bite ya!

Stuart

 

What does that mean?

 

"Pure TKD"

Somewhere in this thread someone mentioned it, I also wanted to know its meaning

 

What? I cant make sense of that.
I am not saying TKD is crap.Even if you believe I am, I am not. So lets get over that.

What are you actualy disagreeing about, I asked that in my last post?
First it was becuase I was a hipocrit,then that I think TKD is crap.
You might still think I am, I dont care, and I have said that non of my posting are saying TKD is crap nor do I think so. So what are your disagreements other than that? Your trying to discredit my posts and all im saying, which is what forums are for, I understand that, but what actulay about TKD ,the application and training of TKD are you disagreeing? Make those points and I will respond with you knowing full well I dont think TKD is crap.

Taking half a sentence away from the whole context does not do justice to the whole point. You know it, I know it ,everyone does. I guess I will have to try to live with it but I will point it out and it is bull. It would be impossible to do face to face or in court of law as you liked to mention.

So its either changed and updated or it hasnt?
Your changing it but saying that it was how it was originaly or claiming thats what they were doing.
Thats called framing in physcology,where you make it seem better than it was.
If you are changing it then why argue against me when I say the standards for certain areas could and should be higher, i.e change things?

I have done. Yes some were graded in Judo. The point is that they did not put it in the sylabuss that you have to be competent at Judo or it would be there. No person would have passed because I know many instructors or Tkd high grades who graded under general Choi or other original pioneers but are not good at Judo. Yea they can do the odd sweep or throw but its not to high standard nor are their drills and teaching methods in those areas. It is not right or helpfull to just say '' Judo was incorporated into TKD''.Thats is framing again, making it sound better than it is.

The reason I say its not helpfull is because when lower grades query TKD about it being just kicks or how helpful it is for SD, they buy into this and carry on that theory, all the time keeping the standard low. It is better to drop the act and just train in Judo or get help hence making a higher standard.

I brought into all that like most have and trained for 1o years in Tkd before I trained in other places and I have seen the difference in standard and there is no one who has purely trained in the TKD sylabus as laid out and watched over by general Choi ,that you can show me, whos standards are competent enough to realy say TKD has Judo incorporated into it. Yea they might know or do the odd sweep or throw , I could and see many who can, but it isnt great. I got better by actualy stealing from Judo. No bull,no '' oh this is realy TKD'' .

Lets see this clip.

See above.

I have seen one step and Sd demos incorporating them,live and in clips. I have seen your trad sparring clips too, but, yea..never seen any actualy showing how they teach or drill the Judo side and thats possibly because they dont or cant very well. I will stand corrected, no problem.
And if you are suddenly saying you havnt seen any either, why are you adamant that Judo is incorporated to a good enough standard?

I feel I answer this earlier.

Some have claimed wrestling and no many disputed it. I would be interested on your take on how boxing was incorporated and why you dont have to show competance in that to pass grades under General Choi or other originals. Now the sporting side I see and know of but the Sylabus side is different. More framing going on.
Pleas not say it becuase there are upward or hooking or straight type punches in TKD because that does not equal boxing.

I will look at Kim bok man.
They have done seminars and not mentioned them. In interviews they say the free sparring or any free stuff they did was like WTF but with more hands. I spoke to a 4th dan who spoke to Rhee ki ha, and he gave similar account as do most others when you read what they say. Dont blame if I am just going of what they say, take it up with them.

What do you mean you represent the system? I thought you changed the sylabus slighty.
Are you saying theres a difference between the system and sylabus. I dont get it.

By your reconing, you are doing it right and how it should be and CK Choi and Rhee ki ha and lots of others, the whole of the ITF and TAGB, who Ck choi is doing a seminar for soon, they are all not. Thats a big statement.

Why do you think I keep refering to you or that everytime I mention TKD I am refering to you or what you do? You are taking it too personaly. If you continue to do so there is no point.Its a good speech but pointless. Its not all about you.
I could say you know little about me etc etc. This is not a personal thing but a discussion about TKD.
And you agreed and asked if I agree and I said yes.

Touche. I dont claim to be a finished product and want the freedom to be wrong and to change and learn more and not have things set in stone so I dont post clips of what I think is correct now, as it might not be when I learn more. In fact I know it wont be because even in the past year, if I had posted a clip a year ago, I would not agree with it fully and would be better.

Fair enough. I still need to see it and fell it at a high intensity which I havnt, and against skilled opponents. They dont work as well as in deomos or low unrealistic intensitys. Now they might for you, but if I dont see it then whwo can blame me for not buying it. That is fair to say in my view.

Others? Whats the game now, isolate me and get all your forum pals on your side. I couldnt care. I am under no illusiona what so ever not many if any will agree with me.
There is alot of cognitive dissonance going on, alot of framing going on and what is referred to as '' too much invested to quite'' where theres so much enery time and effort gone into to TKD that most will find it hard to shift to my way of thinking about it.

It wasnt. My argument was that you are too close to see that if anyone says any thing that is a critisism how ever small or constructive,then you will take that to the extreme and label them as saying they think TKD is crap

Nope. Genuine. If you look at it any different thats your problem.

You brought it up about why you think you are a better judge. I am just explaining Why I think I am aworthy judge too. Not better,worthy. Its not about being better for me. I am just discussing and responding.

I am not ,if you take it like I am thats your problem. I am trying to point out I have no biased either way.


Stuart

Many people on this forum dont give a real name. Just because I am not agreeing doesnt mean its suddenly an issue.
Believe me I have respect for you and everyone realy, I am just giving my views. I stand by my views and would train with anyone.

 

Ok I looked at Kim bok man. I will look more too.
Seem an open minded martial artists.
He says he did TKD but also worked with Judo guys and boxers.

He doesnt say he incorportated them into TKD .He says he looked into it seperatly.
Then later he developed his own system taking Taekwondo and other elemenst like grappling and throwing,and weapons called Chun Kuhn Do.
He doesnt claim TDK has it all and so created a style based on TKD but adding other things.

It begs the question, if he was actulay there doing original TKD but later starts a new style incorporating other areas that some claim WERE already there, why does he not just say its original TKD?
The answer is blooming obviouse.

In his book practical TDK he demonstrates thats DEMONSTRATES things other than kicks like elbows, knees, locks and throwing. But thats not the isuue. I have done all that in TKD and been shown that. The free sparring and free stuff was like WTF with more hands according to them. The SD and one step is different. Its more like a demo. They have said and shown this as the curriculum, not me. Again, take it up with them.

 

To me it is pretty simple. Originally tkd was devised as a MA for SD in the ROK Army & to build spirit among the soldiers. What people fail to realize is how & when MAs in general expanded. Prior to Judo, MAs were mostly a military thing, which was displaced & revised as modern weapon advancements took hold. Then karate came to mainland Japan & was spread to the school system. Judo was already a sport & karate had that element as well. They used similar uniforms & belts systems etc.
The Koreans were EXPOSED to these Arts & other fighting methods. In the ROK Army Gen. Choi & Lt. Nam, who later rose to Colonel, assisted by Sgt. Han Cha Kyo taught rudimentary Korean karate to their soldiers. When it took off they formed an official military gym that they called Oh Do Kwan, which was meant to be inclusive so that all would feel at home, rather than calling it the ChungDoKwan or other name.
They received directions from the President of SK (Rhee) to teach this throughout the armed services, which included the police as they shared some similar duties at that time period. While they looked to create an efficient method of SD they were not limited to karate. They used boxing, wrestling, judo, karate, Hapkido & other aspects that were available to them. They trained with boots on in uniform & in karate Gis. They trained against military weapons like bayonets & rifle butts.
However when tkd started to move to the civilian side there was also an emphasis on sports competitions. When it moved to the West & became an important source of income it naturally softened the hard core SD element.
Today the WTF focuses solely on Olympic TKD which is their responsibility. They also now for the last several years have been holding Poomsae WCs, which is a good thing. The ITF has focused on patterns & sports sparring to the detriment IMHO of SD. But they fool themselves when they throw in some make believe go along with me partner SD routines. Most ITFers do not have a realistic based SD focus.
Now I would defend the ITF syllabus as I think it has it all. The problem is in focus & implementation. All one has to do is follow Gen. Choi's 6 types of sparring, then add in his formal Hoosinsul & you have it all. BUT you will only have it all if you drop the focus on sports match rules & go with FREE sparring where all combatants are FREE to use any & all available means for attack & defense. PLUS you must train in this free sparring under as realistic conditions as possible. Once that happens you will see your shortcoming & take measures to improve them, like getting Judo BB to share with you more refinement & development. The same goes for boxers & wrestlers. Some may call this cross training. That is fine, but I just call it SD & to me that was the oriental focus of TKD. So we are only going back to the roots & putting the emphasis where it should be.
To me it is all about the rules. TKe away the hands & you have super fast, lightning quick stepping, footwork & counter-kicking of WTF Olympic Sport TKD. Take away the kicking & grappling & you have boxing. Adding kicking to wrestling & you have judo. Put it all together & you have Original TKD & JuiJitsu etc.
Remember MMAs grew up from combat karate, as many who looked for strictly effective SD combined elements of the various fighting arts minus the bowing & fancy pajamas etc. If the MMAs were around in Korea back in the 1950s you may have had that as well. A huge problem was Gen. Choi's focus on patterns & his loss over the years of tough Korean military men who were real fighters. Sports match rules dominated with patterns. I say abandon rules, with due consideration for safety factors & focus on SD, then you will be fine with Gen. Choi's as complete as you can get system of SD which by design adds so much more than SD. But only you as a student or instructor can place the emphasis on the training.

 

Where does he say that? Is it in his book (which I have but don't have to hand right now)? In an interview I did with him last year (see Totally TKD magazine, issue 27) he specifically states "I pride myself in the fact that I have never learned any Karate. I have only trained in the Korean Martial Arts. General Choi respected the fact that I had no Japanese influence in my training."

His influence on TKD comes from the army and his experiences fighting in the Korean war. AFAIA (and according to the interview), these influences (and techniques/methods) became part of the make up of TKD, which is why GM Kim calls himself "the spirtiual founder of TKD".. as his influence was so big!

Must admit I don't know much about Chun Kuhn Do, except for the fact that it incorporates many weapons. it mentions grappling on his web page (which I presume is where you read it too). It doesnt say he has combined them however (though of course he has), rather it says "Chun Kuhn Do has taken the practical, easy-to-learn qualities of Taekwondo, and applied them to grappling and weapons techniques." - similar, but not the same.. although to be honest I`m not 100% sure what it means lol

Who does claim that? Even if he did directly incorporate grappling, I would think it would have been to make it a bigger part of the art and more indepth, but that doent dismiss the fact that TKD had some throws and such in it already! Many TKD drill sergents during the Vietnam actively practiced grappling stuff and alternative applications to the 'official line' as well!

Actually its not - as much of his stuff (cane, fan, nunchucka, + I think, but am not sure - some internal healing type stuff) etc. were never part of TKD, secondly I would think the various emphasis on certain elements in his system have shifted a fair bit away from TKD (even when its the same type of stuff) and finally he (according to some) was very put out at the lack of recognition he recieved for TKD!

Dont all books 'demonstrate'! Mentioning things in a book cannot address the issues you have anyway! Does go to show they were in there though!

You`ve done bayonet defences in your TKD class... Im jealous

According to who?

With who? Sorry, you lost me a bit.. who's curriculum are you talking about and why should I take it up with them anyway.. are you refering to your school of TKD?

Stuart