To learn to fight, you must train against someone who is fighting back.

These are the words of Mr. Burton Richardson of JKD Unlimited.

Do you as Ninpo practitioners agree?

I have found over the years many Ninpo people believe that you do not and insome cases SHOULD not train using randori or against people who are fighting back in any way.

I would like to ask a question of those of you who believe this. If you feel doing kata and henka are enough, can you explain to me why you think this? How does this sort of training help you in a real life encounter?

I should note, that I use a mix of these training methods myself and do feel that randori of various degrees is essential. But I am truly curious as to why those that think otherwise hold these opinions.

Please if you respond, keep it on topic and don't get childish, I do not want any sort of flame wars or other such silliness, just robust respectful debate.

Regards,

 

This is a good question but i also think it`s another way of asking if we spar or not, if it`s not i appologise but i believe some will take it that way.

 

Hello,

thank you for your reply.

yes it is what I am asking. HOWEVER, when the word "spar" is used, it tends to make people think of trading, bouncing back and forth trying to score points. that is NOT what I am talking about at al.

What I am talking about is this, we all practice nage waza correct? My question is do you only practice against someone who is allowing the throw? Or do you also practice against someone who is trying to not be thrown?

if you only practice against compliant partners and you feel that is all that is required, then I am asking WHY do you feel that is all that is required?

Thank you,

 

I totally agree with Mr. Richardson.

You don't learn to swim without getting in the water, you don't learn to walk on a tightrope by walking on a line drawn on the ground and you don't learn to fight without fighting.

Don't get me wrong here now, I don't think you need to throw the new guys immediatly into full contact sparring. The kata and henka deffinately have there place, but they are part of a methodology, and if that methodology doesn't eventually involve some type of alive, free-form, non-compliant situations, then you are fooling yourself if you think you are learning to fight.

I am sure that there are people that will come on here and say that leaning taijutsu and leanig to fight are not the same thing. Maybe they are right, but if that is the case I think you need to ask yourself pesonally what you want to learn and what are your reasons for leaning it.

To me anyway, if you are leaning a martial art, then you should be learning to fight. This might not be your main reason for learning the art, but it has to be there. Otherwise you might as well be dancing or Live Action Role Playing ancient battles.

 

It depends. I have had to teach the new students how to throw sometimes. At first I go with it. Then I point out mistakes and don't go with things unless they get them down. I ratchet it up as we go along. At some point, if they have an opening I take it and reverse the technique.

But if you try to do something on someone who is determined to not let you do that technique on them, then you are training bad habits into yourself. When they try to protect themselves from ganseki nage, they leave themselves open for something like musha dori. You should be able to realize that and flow into the natural technque rather than train yourself to take the obvious attack against a prepared opponent.

And I am willing to bet we don't last more than six hours before some of the regular trolls turn this into another thread about why the Bujinkan sucks because we don't do competition.

 

Personally I think that simply studying kata and henka is not enough although it's good stuff and it's not the dead training that most people perceive it to be - at least it shouldn't be if done properly.

But I don't personally believe that training against a resistant opponent by itself is enough either. They are both simply pieces of the whole puzzle.

In my classes, the majority of the time is spent practicing kata, kihon and the application of kihon. But at least once a month we get padded up and practice against resistant partners. In fact we did it just last Wednesday. But the whole benefit of such training (in my opinion) is not in learning to apply technique against a moving, resistant target although that is of course an element of it. Rather, it's to do with learning to recognise some of the psychological reactions to what is going on in the fight so that we can become more comfortable with those reactions when they happen to us for real. For example, the other night two of the students were training away and they were confident and effective in what they were doing. And then I got one of them, without prior warning, to entirely drop his Taijutsu training and revert to his old boxing days. Now the techniques still held up but psychologically it was good experience for the confident student to suddenly find himself dealing with someone who wasn't moving around in the expected way. He became far more defensive in his movements in the first instance and than began to recover his confidence and initiative. I did the same thing later that evening with a student who has a background in Karate (can't remember which style though, maybe Shotokan?).

Interestingly, we also practice against resistant partners with safe training weapons which never seems to get a mention.

Like I say though, in our dojo we simply use such practice as a way to unlock yet another piece of the overall puzzle.

It might also be of interest for people to read the article "The Professional Perspective: Thoughts on the Koryu Bujutsu from a United States Marine" by George H. Bristol, Lt Colonel USMC, published in Keiko Shokon by www.koryu.com

Just some thoughts. Feel free to pick them to pieces!

 

All about levels of training and where you are in your training. I can only speak from my perspective. I train at the level of the person i'm training with. If is a beginner then things are slow to allow them to pick up what we are doing.

More experienced means a higher level of training, i attempt to bugger there technique whatever they are going for and counter it. plenty of times at seminars i've ended up rolling round on the floor till one of us finishes our game of Taijutsu chess.

But that only my perspective on my experience.

 

Those two statements says it all (for me) really. We have classes where you are learning and refining basics kata. Classes where you are learning more advanced kata and classes where we run through kata and pressure test them. Then we have a class that is specific to rank that is for advanced pressure testing and armed/unarmed randori.

I think it all comes down to individual ability and a healthy balance.

 

Hi Koyoku, I do JJJ but I think its a relevant post for all MAs.

I don't think that the opening statement you posted ('to learn to fight...) is anything new. We train with resistance, different levels depending on the skill, ability and technique. The goal is to be able to perform against full resistance. The timeframe within which people achieve this will again differ depending on their personal training goals, time, the MA itself, instructor focus etc.

I feel that your post is more directed at those who don't believe you need to train with resistance.

Also you have mentioned that you have met people who don't believe you need resistance or randori. It sounds a bit black and white to me and I doubt that's the case.

 

Its actually true. There are people who say its not necessary. And actually counterproductive.
I have found that in the Bujinkan there is a general acceptance for a certain type of randori. Also, a certain type of resistance. These usually still involve the uke/tori system.

Just like anything else there is beneficial sparring, and there is unbenefical sparring. Two people who know next to nothing about groundfighting, rolling around on the ground, is not necessiarly beneficial, although it may be termed randori.
Just my opinion.

 

It is all Kyojutsu , the only place you can learn to fight is in real fights. No amount of dojo training will allow you to do this no matter how hard you train or how long . The freedom that our art requires for it's full use is not something that is allowed these day ( Even in warfare they have the Genv Con ). No matter how good a martial artist or fighter you are you are only as good as your NEXT real encounter not your last one. Anyone can stick you , shoot you , throw dirt at you run you down with a car after you have won etc etc etc.
The other reasons these questions are just BS is because your trying to compare apples an grapefruits. We train to survive most other arts train to win. I can loose and still kill you ( basic exmple ,man gets killed falls over and the sword stabs you when your not expecting a threat not to mention the huge amount of mutual kills in Japanese sword play I have seen them still in Kendo today ) I can die and still win (you kill me you don't get the intel you wanted from me etc ).

Well Ricky to be honest all these questions amount to Mass-debating resulting in a stick mess no one wants to go near,for the above reasons they will just be ever decreasing circles.

 

martial arts is meant to train someone in the arts of self defense and the like. Studying it means learning the basics and then improve into the advanced phase. In the end , all those training should end up in actual fights whether armored or not. The essence of learning the art is exemplified by its use in true encounter with another practitiioner who acts and reacts to your use of skills learned through out those trainings years.....my 2 cents.

 

Not so at all I have seen untrained street fighters that are more savy and more dangerous than some with 20 years under their belts in an art, as these guys can be predicted, the street fighter can not if they are good.
While your/our Muto Dori might well work against a begginer's cut it will not work against a well trained skilled swordsman and it will not work against a wild mad person that is just wielding hacking stabbing and slashing clubbing the sword wildly in any direction if you were stupid enough to try to go in against a person like that with your perfect Muto Dori you are going to be in for a lesson in hospital insurance!
This by no means, means that 20 years in an art is not going to teach you anything but like a uni degree the real world and business are operated on another level and if you can't learn how is done and stick to your uni lessons your not going to get far. Some times in your haste you retain the wrong knowledge and throw away the valuable in your haste to adjust as well . That is why this issue can't and will NEVER be a black and white debate when someone wins !

 

I've posted on this before and so will only say this.

Takamatsu Sensei took what he learnt out into the world to prove himself. He fought in five wars and had many real fights, sometimes to the death. He did this because he needed to prove himself.

Why then do so many think that the Kihon and Kata are enough.

Although i'm not going to join a war (except the internet war here on the forums) or do any fighting to the death, it is important to train as realuistically as possible.

Yes we are not talking about sparring here. Just pad up and get someone to attack you like they might in the street where everything goes.

Gary Arthur

 

I have been thinking alot about this lately.

Let me be very blunt: Although the above *may* be true... for those that like to cite it -- do *****YOU***** have what it takes (in way of blood, sweat and tears on the matt) to rely on such a thing?

I have been thinking this through... It is a hard question to answer with yourself **honestly**.

I find that I am skeptical of most of the people who make this claim. If you have already trained to the point where you have broken bones with your boshi-ken and fought under the "Rend and Tear" rules -- then maybe you are in the very elite category of being "too deadly" to fight -- fairly.

I honestly believe there are people out there in that category. I honestly believe none of them post on the internet regularly...

Just a different perspective...

 

"To learn to fight, you must train against someone who is fighting back. "

imo, what's being taught at hombu in japan is definitely not how to fight.
I totally concour with the post above by d.weidman.

 

What is being taught then?

 

don't got there Spooky n(o)ob alert...

 

don't know,but my working theory is that the level of the people teaching is really high and they've all done lotsa hard stuff in the past but as they're now in their 60's and 70's they're teaching martial arts applicable to where they are at.
Actually doing effective self defense techniques/real fighting seemed very low on the agenda.
What was taught seemed to be focusing more on feeling, use of space and nice 'tai-chi' ish movement. It's obviously working for them as they all seem really healthy and flexibile (in stark contrast to a lot of people attending the classes ).

 

Is he a new guy (Bujinkan wise I mean)??

DONNIEDARKO2???