To Kata or not to kata

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Cain, Apr 25, 2003.

  1. shotokanwarrior

    shotokanwarrior I am the One

    Hey, guys, I've landed. Jesus Christ this thread is lo-o-ooooong.

    I'm anti-kata. I have tried hard to be moderate and not to sound like a stupid ranting, visceral extremist (no-one listens to people like that) but really, Sonshu is right, knowledge of katas is sod all use in combat, whether self defence or competition. Rigid movements will not help you when you have to be agile and fast. I once won a patterns competition at a TKD tournament. Fighting? I ended up keeled over on the mat wondering where all the searing pain was emanating from. I think that says everything.

    Here is one of my posts from another kata thread. Like I said, I have tried to be moderate.


    I have said that I hate katas, which is visceral sweeping talk. I have nothing against katas as katas(...What is the Matrix?...) but it ****es me off that they are so emphasised, because they are bugger all use in a real fight situation. If some piece of hulking street trash decides to follow through on his archetypal 'What are you looking at?' then the fact that I know Heian Shodan, Nidan, Sandan and Yondan goes totally and utterly 100% out the window. That's not to say I can't kick his ass but the point is that they are really no use.

    Keep katas, but lay off the emphasis. They should be an obscure phenomenon that MA'ists can do just for the hell of it if they want to, not something that's powerfully necessary if you want to get your next belt. People should be learning to fight, not doing useless rigid robotic movements.

    Now if you are in a Matrix fighting simulation program and you're doing a kata at full speed with a bunch of people actually attacking you...yes, they would be very useful!!! Roll on the age of the machines I say.



    DEATH TO KATAS!!!!!!!
     
  2. shotokanwarrior

    shotokanwarrior I am the One

    Hey, sorry guys, I didn't realize I had already posted in this thread. Sorry for resurrecting this stinking cadaver - just ignore it.

    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! SAVE ME FROM THE SO-CALLED GENTLEMEN!!!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
     
  3. Scarlet Mist

    Scarlet Mist Banned Banned

    Just a question. If you hate Katas so much why are you Shotokanwarrior and not Kickboxingwarrior or MMAwarrior?
     
  4. shotokanwarrior

    shotokanwarrior I am the One

    Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrggggghh!!!!!!!!

    When Is Someone Gonna Realise There's More To Shotokan Than bleeding Katas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarggggghh!!!!!!!!! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarggggggggggggghhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  5. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Shotokanwarrior has a point SM. That's kind of an odd question. Even without kata, shotokan is going to be different from kickboxing or MMA. So it's entirely possible to dig on shotokan without digging on kata. Surely if you took the sets out of choylifut, the wide uppercuts and wotnot would still distinguish it as choylifut. Those techniques would still operate the same way, wouldn't they?
     
  6. Taliar

    Taliar Train harder!

    Kata's should make your think. Why do i do this, would it work, what could i do instead, where does the power come from. If your thinking then your are learning and improving.

    In my experience, the people who do well in kata comps also do well in sparring comps. Why because they are dedicated and work hard to be the best.
     
  7. Scarlet Mist

    Scarlet Mist Banned Banned


    So much mouth and so little talk

    You know, come to think of it, you're right. But the combat aspect as applied today is based heavily on Kickboxing it would seem, of course there are those wide uppercts and sweeping hooks. :D But If I detested the forms I'd drop CLF for kickboxing, I'd sacrifice those techniques if the forms bugged me so much.
    I'm just asking our angry little friend here if she'd rather do that than stick with shotokan. I mean, if half of your training is forms, and you HATE HATE HATE forms, wouldn't you just drop the art for something similar that doesn't have forms?
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2004
  8. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    I was going to bypass this one since I doubt that what I say will have much sway. Also, forgive me, but I decided to bypass reading all 33 pages of posts so forgive me if I bring up points that others have already brought up.

    I feel that when used properly, forms/katas can be a valuable training tool. Older, trad. forms are good for mapping out the angle and direction of attack for kyusho and tuite attacks.They also show ways of compounding the attacks and what progressions the combos can take. Contemporary or creative/open forms can and do push the athletic envelope to new levels. I feel both have a significant value for an advanced practitioner.

    Having said this, I should point out that I feel far too many schools use forms as a "filler" and a "time buster" that both beginners and intermediates could spend their time more productively. If you don't understand the kyusho or tuite applications and can't apply them, then traditional (older pre-WW2) forms would be of very limited value. If you are doing contemporary/open forms and you are not ready to push the athletic envelope then there is little point in this either.

    For myself, I find that I have a lot of trouble finding training partners that I can really cut loose with. Like everyone else, I am FAR from invincible or unbeatable, but my combo of size, power, speed, technique, and strategy make it hard to find anyone to play with. I have to hold back a lot with even some of the champions in MT and MMA. As a 40 year old with a bad knee, I don't see enough reward in going back into kickboxing or going into NHB competition to make it worth my while. Also, if I were to win, I fear I'd just hear comments of how I only won because of my superior strength and power, like when Coleman and Kerr were winning people were saying how "it's just the big, strong guys beat up the smaller and weaker guys". In open forms if I win, it's because I am the best technician with the best speed, balance, power, and focus. I'm the best martial artist, not just the most physically powerful competitor. This forces me to be better and to push myself to grow.

    I do believe like many of the other older "traditional" methods, forms do have their value in contempory training. I do feel that many reject them and revolt against them due to bad experiences when they are misused (ex. as a "filler") and I feel that this is a mistake. Are they absolutely neccesary? IMO, no, but they are a valuable tool for those who have already have a strong base to take things to a higher level. I do feel that forms should only constitute a much smaller percentage of overall training than many schools spend on them.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2004
  9. powerof0ne

    powerof0ne Valued Member

    sigh

    I wouldn't classify myself as a traditional martial artist or a mma; even though I have trained in a traditional style of karate for almost 20 years now and plan on testing for my sandan/3rd dan this summer in it. I just consider myself a martial artist that. I've had almost 10 years of experience in Muay Thai now and about 4 years in brazilian jiu jitsu. I'm relatively young(25) and come from a family of martial artists..my father is a godan/5th dan in ****o ryu but doesn't really practice these days(too busy with his job :( ). Someone that has only trained a few years in karate generally isn't going to realize the benifits of kata, actions speak lowder than words.
    Through Kata lineage of a art can be traced to some extent, certain techniques can be practiced that normally wouldn't be...why do I do kata? I do it for the ART of it..kinda weird how art fits in martial ART? :eek: and karate is considered a martial art :eek: wow, that's spooky. Some karate schools train and primarily focus on kata, and yet others don't.
    I would never start doing a kata in a real fight but I have used techniques from kata in real life situations when I used to be a bouncer. I'm not reccomending to fight using techniques from a kata either. When I'm too old and unable to compete again or spar hard I will have my kata to fall back on to practice and maybe someday refine.
     
  10. shotokanwarrior

    shotokanwarrior I am the One

    What do you mean? How much clearer could I have been???

    I don't have much choice...where I live it's either Shotokan or TKD, both of which have forms. Goddammit, I LIKE doing Shotokan, it's just that being good at katas is like being in the Matrix...winning a kata competition is a nice ego boost but it's a hollow one, no use when fighting. I would rather not hide behind a delusion.

    Little? I'm 5'7. 'Our angry, average height friend' would be more appropriate:)
     
  11. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    I suppose you already have the answer to that question. She likes shotokan despite her opinion of kata. And maybe if there were something sufficiently similar that didn't have kata, she'd go to it. But presumably there isn't. Kickboxing isn't similar.

    Her choice to make. Sounds like she's made it.


    Stuart
     
  12. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Please pardon my ignorance, but I've never done Karate. Can someone please tell me, are Kata's the same as Forms in Chinese Martial Arts?
     
  13. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

  14. shotokanwarrior

    shotokanwarrior I am the One

    Thank you, ap Oweyn.
     
  15. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    No problem shotokanwarrior.
     

Share This Page