To grab or not to grab, there is no question

I've seen that video, actually. We have some not too dissimilar conditioning exercises, being the outdoor types

Oh, I agree. I was just very surprised at niinpo stating that pushing was stronger than pulling, when I thought that toward the core = strong and away from the core = weak was an accepted general principle in most arts.

 

Well those are not very good examples in a martial arts context, what do you think would happen if the rope were to break (person let go eqiv) one of the major pillars in budo is balance!

 

Ha ha! You are up late! I was illustrating the principle, if you spent more time in the Honbu and less in nearby dojos you would hear Soke say it, often. And yes add a little corkscrew to the direction or downward spiral and you have a fine drop of taijutsu.

 

When you pull, you will use your whole body. You can take advantage on your body weight and the gravity.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfAUtpYu-hA&feature=youtu.be"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfAUtpYu-hA&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib77CF4nxF0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib77CF4nxF0[/ame]

 

When you apply a "door opening" move, you do want your opponent to be able to read you. If you don't knock on the door loud enough, how will your opponent be able to

- hear your knocking,
- open his door, and
- look out?

Since we are talking about "pulling" here, when your opponent pulls you in circle and try to get behind of you, what may be your reaction at that particular moment?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-brtRy3VKw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-brtRy3VKw[/ame]

 

When you start saying things, do you not think it wise to make sure you are stating the truth, especially when you are talking about someone else?

For example, last October in Japan, I saw William training with Hatsumi Soke. He never missed any of Soke's classes during his trip. He speaks better Japanese then most of us (Us being those who do not live in Japan or have never lived there), trains a lot more then most do, and has always been loyal To Hatsumi Soke.

He trained Just as much With Hatsumi Soke as he does with Hatsumi Sensei most senior Shihan.


See I can say this, because I personally witnessed it. William is a faithful and loyal member of the Bujinkan who upholds its values well.



Enough of the snide comments.

 

There is nothing wrong with grabbing so long as the combat principles are adhered to. Here are four common combat principles:

- do not get hit
- minimum movement, maximum mobility
- always stun and/or unbalance on contact
- triangle (enter sharply), circle (control), and square (finish strongly)

IME, most grabbing is done as part of a counter attack, not as the initial attack. For example, first you hit them and then you grab to control them so they don't hit you back. Or you get unbalanced and you counter grab them to recover your balance. Or they have a weapon and you grab them to neutralize their next attack.

What tends to happen, however, is that once grabbing, people tend to lock up and lose mobility. This neglects the principle of maintaining maximum mobility. Also what tends to happen is you and your opponent reach a point of equality (what is called a strength on strength contest) and this neglects the principle of always stun and/or unbalance on contact. I could go on about principles...

The point is that to adhere even to these four mentioned principles, you must develop the ability to "grab without locking up" so you maintain mobility, and you must be able to "grab and strike together" to be able to stun and/or unbalance on contact. Then you must be able to put this all together and "do not get hit", enter, control, and strongly finish the enemy.

What you first called a grab in the beginning is meticulously replaced with fluidity, mobility, applying constant pressure, using points of contact as pivot points, and getting the job done with only the minimum necessary movements. IMHO.

 

I liked your drawings to illustrate a point.

What I didn't like is that you are pushing or pulling without first unbalancing your opponent. In other words, shouldn't a push or pull be done after the opponent is already stunned or unbalanced by some other means, such as a strike or "lifting them up" to break their contact with the ground?

 

Exactly correct!

I will do a second illustration to show this.

 

Thing is those who spend time in those nearby Dojo tend to have better basics and overall taijutsu.

Honbu is cool and all that but unless it's drastically changed recently then it's not exactly conducive to learning and there's not one person in the Bujinkan general populous who has reached a point where they no longer need to learn.

Personally I wonder more about the people who don't take the time to seek out training in one of those dojo and would rather spend it hobnobbing at the honbu.

Will is a good bloke and puts his heart and soul into his training, that's obvious.

 

Will is definitely a good bloke and trains well, I am not contesting that, but a few trips to the honbu doesn't do it, this is what makes me laugh, people that have been training 6 or 10 years and think they know it because they do what their "teacher does" I have been traveling out to Japan for over 20 years and spend as much time at the honbu as I can and think I am only just beginning to figure a few details of what Soke means just now. Maybe that's just me and I am a bit dumb?

 

plus I would add, if you do grab, don't use them for your balance, as they will then be able to take your balance.

 

Or you need to spend more time in those local Dojo?

I don't know much but one thing I am certain of is that the student teacher relationship in traditional arts is very very important, developing that type of connection with a senior of the organisation or ryu-ha is vital for your development as a student.

If for example in the Bujinkan someone doesn't have that relationship with Hatsumi Sensei, face it not many do, then it's needed with one of his students.

Time in is one thing but it's only as good as the tutelage you receive, five years under a good teacher that sees you as his student is worth far more than fifteen years under one who just sees you as another face in the room of fifty other people.

 

Of course having a close relationship with as near to Soke you can get is good.

I doesnt matter how good your teacher is, he isnt as good as Soke, Soke says you need to train with him, you need to be there to hear his words, see him move, 2D videos are no good, second hand information is not as good.

 

These are in my opinion another example of bad martial arts practice.

What if the elastic breaks, this is the same as your attackers clothing tearing, coming off, letting go or just simply moving with you to take your balance, you need to be balanced irrespective of your opponent - practicing with a tethered object is learning bad practice, the same as you shouldn't use your opponent for you balance, otherwise you are giving them control of your balance.

 

But there we go back to the age old problem of what's the point in going to honbu if you can't punch correctly, can move properly, don't engage or use your hips properly, can perform a simple cut properly? These are common problems in the organisation.

Do you learn that at honbu? Do you have the chance to explore the minutiae of the ryu-ha and their kata? Do you get at honbu the opportunity to work on the art until you are sick of what you are doing and have worked on the essentials, under guidance, until it's drilled into your bones?

Hatsumi Sensei may well say those things but does that mean you exude all others?

You can turn up to his classes for 25 years and be fighting for scraps of information because you don't have the proper foundation or you can study diligently under one teacher and still go to honbu, I would imagine that after that you would appreciate his lessons far more.

Other than because he says you should attend his classes what are your reasons for not seeking out one of the shihan and studying under him?

It's certainly doable as far as time goes.

 

Just in case anyone doesn't know.

YouKnowWho is the man when it comes to certain Chinese arts, he really is the dog's danglies.

Oh btw for all the non Brits, that's a compliment.

So while his views might not gell with some JMA the guy really does know his stuff.

 

Better not to knock and quietly open the unlocked door, than to stand around making a ruckus at 2 in the morning and waking up the neighbors who may see and later report your entry.

In this video you post here, the guy getting dragged doesn't start moving with the momentum until after the guy doing the throw has taken two steps to the side. That is impractical to assume, at most you might have one step before someone starts reacting. So if the person being grabbed started spinning sooner, the video would look a bit more like what was likely to happen in a real situation. Either their momentum can bring them around your back(physically or potential strikes), or they can try some kind of kick going the opposite way to meet you in the face. There are also rolls and things of that kind of nature(what we call taihenjutsu) that may potentially work.

More than what potential counters exist, you are stuck with running around him if you try something like this. If you let go you are in trouble. If you don't have a lot of space or there are obstacles, you can't run around like that. You would be just as likely to trip on a rock or hit a tree yourself than pull him into one.

So to recap, he can go with the momentum and try to catch up(spinning in the direction he is pulled, he can potentially strike or kick in that direction), go against the momentum with a reverse strike(at the end of the video there was a potential reverse spinning kick or strike option), or drop down and nullify the momentum(which means you are now trying to spin and drag something on the ground), while you are stuck with trying to use the momentum till the end because you are slaved to the motion. A similar concept of throwing can be found in aikido, but we wouldn't do anything that requires so much effort. We do have a technique where you jump and spin in one motion to create a similar effect on the opponent, but actually dragging him around in a circle takes too much time and energy.

I'll just add that I think shuai jiao is an interesting art, and you can see the similarities and perhaps borrowings from it in arts from jujutsu(judo) to sumo. However, the issues I have are the over reliance on grabbing, the extreme throwing positions, and how adding weaponry would affect the different throws. Most of our throws can be done if you have weapons in your own possession, and/or if the opponent has their own.

We aren't talking about pulling/pushing here, that came up as a side discussion that really has no bearing on whether to grab or not. Neither pulling or pushing beat off balancing the guy without having to resort to either. That should be commonsense, if I can get the effect without the effort, why put in the effort?:dunno:

That being said, if you look at the Shinden Fudo ryu video I posted, the part with the Shihan using the bamboo to practice throwing is similar to your elastic band video.

We have whole body sacrifice throws in which we throw our body weight in motion to take the guy down, but in general, our throws don't put us in positions where all we can do is throw. Usually, you can kick or punch as well. This is another reason why the philosophy of grabbing and physically moving the guy over some balance point is a bit different. In our arts, the biggest question isn't just whether or not you can throw the opponent, but can you also strike or do something else as you are throwing. Another important question is what variations can I do if the throw goes wrong? If you are grabbing and slaving yourself to the opponent with your throws, what options do you have if the throws go wrong? Also, if you spend all your time and training based around a certain set of parameters, what do you do when the parameters are outside of what you know? For example, your hand is numb or injured and can't grab for some reason. What then? Can you do any of your throws without grabbing or only using one arm(try doing them with only the right arm, then only the left)? We have single arm throws and also do throws that don't require you to grab, so those contingencies are already trained into these arts.

 

Actually, grabbing is a basic skill one needs to learn. However, if one's development get's stuck there, they will have issues when their grab couldn't work.

We have combat principles as well, and you also point out why grabbing doesn't adhere to some of them.

-do not get hit(move offline)
-minimum movement, maximum mobility and efficiency(passive trumps active, conserve energy, get the most bang for your buck)
-always stun/and or unbalance on contact(you are in balance, he is out and easier to control)
-leave the opponent with a ?????(don't give him hints into what you are doing, confuse him, attack two or more places at once with two or more body parts)
-don't do something that puts you in a worse position than you were to begin with(move to the best position or kurai dori)
-defending is passive, attacking is active(don't put too much energy and concentration into defending or else you can't attack as well)
-defend and attack at the same time(even if it is only taking his balance as that is part of attacking)

So you recognize that grabbing makes you lose mobility because to grab, one has to lock up(both physically and mentally). Not so the case when you don't rely on an active squeezing motion of your hand to render something immobile. There is the space between the thumb and forefinger, the space between the pinky and wrist(sometimes including forearm), and the space created in your palm by rotating your fingers that can all be used instead of grabbing. These alternatives all allow you to achieve the same effect as a grab but are multidirectional as far as power applicability, maintain constant pressure, don't lock you up, and are harder to sense and understand to boot. You can maintain control and free your mind and body up to strike simultaneously. Even the "grabbing" hand can be altered quicker and strike faster than if you had been grabbing.

Efficiency is the biggest component though. By using leverage instead of strength, you don't fatigue your muscles as quickly, and get more effect for the amount of time, energy, and commitment spent.

I forgot to add that there are times when just placing the forearm or other part of your body against the joint can also be used instead of the grabbing hand, the earlier example of that aikido arm bar and the version we do being one, another being using your chest or shoulder to take the elbow in an arm bar instead of using the hand is another.