To grab or not to grab, there is no question

I know that is not a judo video but by the quote above and previous in this thread you have pretty much thrown out most judo throws which make use of grips and grabbing. By saying they require inordinant amount of strength and are inefficient is a serious slap at Judoka. Most of which im certain would more then hold their own against any(and i mean any) one in the takamatsuden with regards to grappling.

Before my judo club closed i was hammered daily with the teaching to use as little energy as possible to execute the throws. The sparring only reinforced this.

Honestly have you applied the throws your learning to a actual alive and resisting partner who is trying to throw you? AKA Judo randori? I ask because it sounds an awful lot like hypothesizing to me.

 

When you date a girl and if you know she likes to spend your money, if you let her to lead where you are going, she may lead you to Macy's Store. If you take the lead, you can lead her to Dollar General Store.

There are just too many unknown if you let your opponent to lead the fight. If you lead your opponent, you can lead him into an area that you are more familiar with than he does. That will be your advantage. One simple example, when you deal with a boxer, if you can get into clinch ASAP, you can force your boxer opponent to play your favor grappling game instead of to let him to force you to play his favor striking game.

If you let your boxer opponent to deliver his fast and powerful jab, cross, hook, uppercut combo, he will put you in defense mode. Will it be better to get into clinch before he starts to throw even the 1st punch?

 

IMO, the pulling is always more powerful than pushing. The reason is simple. When you

- push, your opponent's body can spin and get away.
- pull, you can force your opponent to move the way that you want him to move.

The pulling can be a good set up for "single leg".

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyBlk9Lusak&feature=youtu.be"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyBlk9Lusak&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_EAtGbI_vw&feature=youtu.be"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_EAtGbI_vw&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

In order to be able to handle a big and heavy opponent, the pulling can be very useful. This way you can borrow your opponent's force and add your own force on top of it. Without pulling, it's very difficult for a 165 lb guy to deal with a 240 lb guy.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtPNDbBm-7E"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtPNDbBm-7E[/ame]

 

The advantage of the clothes is it's easy to pull/drag/shake. Without clothes, you can still pull/drag/shake your opponent's arm. But when your opponent has sweat on his arm, it won't be as easy.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPCfdBYxWAU&list=UULKtKW6DtNNBhOmDYlND4Qg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPCfdBYxWAU&list=UULKtKW6DtNNBhOmDYlND4Qg[/ame]

 

Lots of good replies. A few points need to be reiterated. This thread isn't a slam on any martial art, just a look at how our arts are taught. We do have "grabs," lots in fact. However, once you are beyond a basic level, you are taught not to grab. The how and why of what you do changes at each level. At first, doing to the other guy before he does unto you is most important so muscling, speed, big and overly complicated movements are accepted and acceptable. Many people in the Bujinkan, no matter there rank or how many years they've trained, haven't moved much past this stage.

As you get better, timing, subtlety, and courage are more necessary because you are learning things which get closer to the concept of things being decided by the width of a hair. The movements are simpler and more effective, but harder to do because you have to lose what you've known up till then. Now the moves work on touch, are harder to sense and counter, and are more effortless. These refinements aren't taught to everyone, and only come when one is trusted and ready.

Take a common lapel grab, in the beginning it is okay to pull him by moving back, to try to take his hand off, to use some force and raising of your elbows to get the lock, and to grab.

However, such things are elementary and easily countered. If the opponent pulls you instead or is stronger and resists, you won't be able to do what you wanted.


At a more advanced level, you don't move his arm. Your elbows sink and you use leverage. Your ability to use your chest in conjunction with your hands and footwork is important. The moves are more subtle, simpler, and more effective and almost impossible to counter because of their speed and lack of stimulus. You don't grab, but catch and lock them without having to rely on finger/hand strength, you use leverage instead. These techniques work whether he pushes or pulls or is stronger. Someone mentioned two on ones, that is similar in concept. In the early stages, you are just trying to get the guy off you. At higher levels, about stacking the deck and doing less with more effect. Leverage, correct mechanics, subtlety, and waiting till the last minute are all force multipliers. Forget two on one, it's more like 4 on 1.

 

There's a brilliant thing by Kanō-sensei about barely gripping at all (using the thumb and forefinger if I recall) to avoid dependency on it, once one has developed better skills. I've been meaning to post it in here but I can't remember which of his writings it's from.

Any judoka or Japanese speakers remember the snippet I'm talking about?

 

Calm down, nobody's slighting judo. You do realize that Hatsumi Sensei and some of the Japanese masters of these arts were ranked in judo right?:dunno:

I realize that you had a bad experience with trying to learn ninjutsu, by you do realize that your knowledge about the real arts that comprise the Takamatsuden is almost zero? That's not a slight, when I first moved to Japan, I realized that what I had learned to date and the rank I had were meaningless. I had to start over from scratch. That's just how different things were. Also, most of what I'm talking about in this thread is advanced, most I wasn't exposed to till after my godan.

Try not to let your emotions get in the way. These things work and are actually easier to do than grabbing once you learn how. It's like a vice(I know vices can also crush btw) or a bottle opener. They just keep things in place so you can do something moving another part(like your elbow in our examples). Anything more than enough is too much. If you are thinking about your hands, you are missing a lot. Sure you can twist open a bottle cap if you are strong enough, but it is much easier and requires less effort to use a bottle opener. If you know how to use leverage properly, a whole world of possibilities opens up.

Think of pulling a trigger, would you rather have a relaxed tug or try spasmodically jerking your finger? Which method do you think would keep you on target better?

 

Sure, that is what I mean by letting him do what he wants. If his arm is straight, it requires more effort to try to bend it(not that we don't have techniques that do just that), and if it is bent, it is harder to straighten.

We would never take a position like the second picture in the series. First of all, his arm is straight off to the side and you are parallel to him. He can take your left arm with his own and arm bar you, his balance isn't affected, and your height is the same as his. The guy doing the technique's right elbow is also to the right of his body, so that position makes it harder to use leverage with the right arm. If we were in that position, the opponent's arm would be downward closer to his right leg, our right elbow would be in front of our own body closer to his, our stance would be lower, our left leg would be controlling his right leg more, and our left arm would either be bent using the elbow and shoulder to help take the lock or down more towards his right leg(never across his chest like that). If the guy's arm was stretched out to the side like that, we might use the chest and arm to lock it in an arm bar again, but the position would be a bit different. In the last photo as well, his leg is extended backwards and the upper body is leaning forward past the knee. Not the best position to be in, even if you've thrown the guy, because how do you lock his arm from there or prevent yourself from being thrown over? Also, if there are multiple opponents, it is harder to see any potential attacks, let alone react to them from that extreme a position.

In the bent armed photo, the left elbow is again too far behind oneself by our way of thinking. In that position, you have to use your bicep and can only really pull from that position. We would take a position that allows us to better control his elbow, not just trap it against our body. He is also standing squarely in front of the opponent and taking the same height. Not a good place to be in.

From our art's perspective, we wouldn't glom on to the guy like that and run around. You can't strike or change your technique easily, and you are just as much caught up in your momentum and inertia as he is(hence the lack of balance once he's thrown). There is a concept of moguri(sinking) that is a spiraling downwards that does the same thing without having to sacrifice your balance or ability to change at a moment's notice. By trying to grab as opposed to catching or hooking, his lack of clothes, sweat, and other factors all play a role. If your hands are numb from the cold or if you can't bring your grip strength to bear for any reason, you don't have a backup. Our system is based on redundancy, so if one thing doesn't work, you move on to the next. If you are relying on your grab to work and it doesn't, what do you have to use as an immediate backup?

Pushing and pulling are pretty much the same. They both have their uses and disadvantages. From our art's perspective, they are both inferior to doing nothing because they are both active, in that you have to think and "try" to do either. Much better to do nothing active that he can read or counter and end up with the same result. How you ask? It is simple, you use whatever push or pull that they do to affect their shoulder joint/scapula area. If they do neither push nor pull, you still get their shoulder/back locked and their balance taken by your body movement, not by force.

Sure you can pull a bigger opponent, but only if he let's you. In the video you posted, the larger guy was leading with his upper body, bent over with his legs back. Anyone in that kind of posture is easier to throw forward because they have already done half of your work for you. If he had better control of his balance and body, he would've gotten thrown around like a rag doll.

To make the non-action philosophy work however, you do have to already have mastered the action way of doing things. If you only train against compliant attackers who offer you no challenge, you will never be able to make the more subtle aspects work. But if you rely on actively trying to do things, eventually you will meet up with someone on whom such things don't work. Doing more when you are at a disadvantage can sometimes add fuel to the fire and put you in worse trouble than you already were to begin with.

 

i'm not slamming any arts. i think this is a great discussion to have on the differences between arts. i know i personally always appreciate what you post on the ninjutsu forum as a way to compare and contrast what i've seen in the other arts i've trained in.

yep, pretty much been taught these very same things in both aikido and hapkido. especially the sinking level and using leverage.

cheers.

 

LOL my post came off far more serious and confrontational then i wanted. I was simply trying to say that it sounded like you were criticizing how other grappling arts do their thing with grabbing.

However your correct i dont know about the Ninjutsu throws very well. My only throwing experience comes from judo and mma and am not really at a point were im comfortable with not grabbing as part of the throw as it feels like i dont have enough control.

 

Naturally, grabbing is the starting point for us as well. You can't really teach a beginner with no experience how to hold someone's arm without grabbing, it is impractical and unlikely that they could do it. However, in our arts, it is just the start and the higher you get, the more you are taught not to grab(for all the reasons discussed). This thread wasn't meant to be a comparison with other arts, just so happened that people from other arts were the first to comment and things went down that road, and also since there aren't a lot of videos demonstrating what was being discussed, videos from other arts were used as examples. I think it's easy to misinterpret the message, but often we find good examples of what we are trying to illustrate from outside sources. Take this video for example:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqwl9vNi95E"]How to Use Wrist Grabs and Lapel Grabs | STREET CHIN NA - YouTube[/ame]

This really demonstrates much clearer than a lengthy explanation could the point about anything more than enough being too much.

Judo is a great martial art, as is wrestling. Taking away the necessity to deal with strikes creates its own dynamics, as does the ruleset for competition. If all grabs were banned, proponents would come up with other ways of grappling without grabbing. Some of the ideas explored here might even become seen as commonplace. That is how things evolve or change, when there is a need to do so.

 

I would also differentiate between grabbing and clamping. When your thumb is not involved you can still drag and reposition but your release is faster and the other person can't really use your grip as a sticking point. A necessity when doing no-gi grappling and very handy when striking.

 

I did a quick sketch to illustrate why I consider in some situations pushing can be advantageous to pulling. As you can see it uses legs rather than arms and as mentioned before, if in correct alignment the ground is used to your advantage.

 

Do you guys not have back muscles in ninjutsu, cos us Judo guys use them for pulling all the time. And they're big, powerful muscles.

 

You are right, judo folk have great muscles, as you know I did judo for many years and was definitely at my physical fittest then, in the Bujinkan we are taught to use as little muscle as possible and use other methods, as muscle power use usually leads to the one with the greater muscles to win, if you fight on those terms, hence utilising other methods.

 

To be honest, I didn't get that distinction from your OP, so I thought you were talking about clamping and catching as well.

It all makes a lot more sense now

 

But you can use the front leg equally to pull, you don't have to use your arms.

Here's a hypothetical one for you; take a tug of war, if the rope was replaced with a pole and the teams tried to push each other over, do you think more force would be generated than by them pulling a rope?

Here's two kinds of pulling at once, why do they not push the truck instead?

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFPZkOF78xY"]Derek Poundstone Truck Pull at America's Strongest Man 2009 - YouTube[/ame]

 

Niinpo, I mean this in the best of ways, but that illustration makes no sense to me at all. Especially not in a ninjutsu context. Whichever shihan taught you to either push or pull like that should be expelled from all martial arts training forever – or you are just not very good at drawing

 

No, like Sifu Ben said, clamping is also quicker. Grabbing is the lease efficient of the methods mentioned. It requires active participation, you are stuck(read committed) to the grab, and it sends all kinds of signals to the opponent. That's why I separated it from the other methods(clamping, catching, hooking, etc).

The thing to keep in mind is that the people telling us not to grab already have strong grips and years of training, so it isn't because they couldn't if they wanted to. One shouldn't be out of shape to do ninjutsu, that's why we have ryutai undo and other forms of tanren training, junan taiso, kiso training, and all kinds of conditioning methods. Nobody is advocating being weak or out of shape, just discussing how you use what you've got.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQaJWsfK2c0"]Ninjutsu Shinden Fudo Ryu Bujinkan - YouTube[/ame]

If you listen to what he's saying here, it kind of goes along with already forging a strong and pliant body. In the beginning of the Koto Ryu & Koppojutsu video that dunc posted as well, you can see some of the conditioning methods used by that particular school. So again, it's about how to become more efficient and effective as you advance.

Pushing and pulling are both fine but they both have their limitations. A good opponent can read your push or pull and use it against you, but it is harder for them to deal with a technique in which you do neither but still off balance them and get their shoulder joint up(like they are shrugging their shoulder).

 

It makes perfect sense. It's just that the guy in the drawing has poor posture, doesn't know how to bend and use his front leg properly, and is looking down at his feet too much because he's a beginner without much training.