To grab or not to grab, there is no question

I'm with Master Wong on this one, grab and keep them close. You can't control someone at arms length, you need to be close.

*NSFW LANGUAGE*
http://youtu.be/znvo8XUP4qc

 

Not sure what this is in response to, but I who do you think was advocating keeping them at arm's length? We usually enter to throw after strikes so there is no static staying at a certain range in our training.

Grabbing is alright, but there are better ways to achieve the same effect without sacrificing the use of one of your limbs. Deflecting/redirecting his limbs and using footwork come to mind.

 

The "gate" is a general MA terms to express "how far away that you and your opponent are". If your hand can touch your opponent's

- wrist, you are at his wrist gate.
- elbow, you are at his elbow gate.
- shoulder, you are at his shoulder gate.

If you are at your opponent's wrist gate, your opponent still have too much freedom to counter you. Of course you may have to take some risk to move in closer. That's why your "arm drag - grab/redirect/release" will give you a safe entering so his arms won't give you any trouble.

In the following clip, the guy starts from both hands on his opponent's wrists (wrist gate). He then moves his left hand to his opponent's right elbow (elbow gate), and move his right arm to his opponent's head (shoulder gate).

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWvpDSG5UZ8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWvpDSG5UZ8[/ame]

 

The problem for "deflecting/redirecting" is when you move in, if your opponent moves back, the distance will remain unchanged. You have to try to move in again.

Many years ago, a good friend of mine said, "If I just keep moving back, there is no way that you can throw me." His statement had bothered me for quite sometime. One day, suddenly some light came into my head. If I can attach a "hook" on my opponent's body. When he moves back, he will pull my body into him.

The advantage of the "grab" is you have put a "hook" on your opponent's body. I would like to call this kind of "hook" strategy as "octopus" strategy. IMO, the nice thing about the "octopus" strategy is you can force your striker opponent to play with your grappling game ASAP. So the totally "octopus" strategy concept is built on the foundation of "grab".

 

I figured that's what you meant, but I have never heard that terminology in Japanese martial arts. Problem with that concept is that things are constantly in motion, if he is attempting to strike you, you can be at whatever gate one instant, and another as he retracts or your footwork either moves you in or out of range.

If you are at his wrist gate and his arm is outstretched you mean.

If his arm is being orientated in another direction(due to deflection or counter striking), you can be at his wrist and elbow simultaneously.

With the arm drag, you are trying to move him offline. It is a lot of effort when you can do the same easier. In the video you posted, before he goes to do the arm drag, he has the wrist and elbow so he can do a throw directly from there, saving 3 moves.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69vMvHVQYW8"]Bujinkan Usagi Dojo 21 - YouTube[/ame]

I know it's dark, but this is one of the better of the bad attempts online to demonstrate this concept. It's from the kata called Setsuyaku from Shinden Fudo Ryu. At least you see the arm catch more or less done correctly(actually less, but more than some other videos).

 

If your opponent is attacking(i.e. moving in) and you move in also, even if he retracts, you have still changed the distance quite a bit. By deflecting across his body, this further changes the distance that his rear hand would have to travel to attack while keeping the distance between you constant. This is why footwork and deflection beat grabbing as a tactic.

Actually, by grabbing you don't have a hook. You have a dead hand as they call it in the Japanese martial arts. Once you have grabbed, you can only grab. I mentioned in post #5 about hooking or catching instead and how that can bring you into the opponent as he retracts. That is why you hook or catch different parts of his body, it is passive but has an active effect whereas grabbing is active and has a limited effect.

ps-the video you embedded is private so can't be viewed.

 

Who has "dead hand" in these situations?



[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIarZGAZG2s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIarZGAZG2s[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGgv6Wm3-ds"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGgv6Wm3-ds[/ame]

 

The real question should be, why does it take you 3 moves to only accomplish tying up his hands?:dunno:

If your idea is to strike, you should strike. It shouldn't take 3 moves(two at most) to do so.

If your idea is to take a lock, or throw, the problem is the same. By your third move, he should've already been on the ground. If you are dealing with a counter, that is another story, but the videos you posted are only of compliant training partners, so again there is too much going on with too little effect. The opponent's balance isn't that compromised in the first video, slightly more so in the second. He hasn't been struck, and he is still standing.

In the first video, both have dead hands. Sure, the opponent is tied up but you cannot strike or do much else but hold onto him from that position. It is possible to lock both of his arms up and maintain your ability to strike without having to give up the control. So, the person in the yellow also has dead hands in this situation. Due to the distance and lack of kuzushi shown, even with his arms tied up he can kick(probably with his left leg) or headbutt. A basic rule of our arts is that when the hands move, the legs move as well. Standing in one place and only moving your hands is less efficient and more dangerous as a principle of movement.

 

In this clip, when you use right hand to hold on his left wrist, his left arm will jam his own right arm. You can let go your left hand and punch on his face. He will have no extra arm to block your punch.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIarZGAZG2s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIarZGAZG2s[/ame]

If you attack at his leading leg at that moment, you don't have to worry about whether his fist/elbow can hit your head or not. The whole extra steps are just set up for "safe entry". If you care about your own safety, those extra steps will be needed.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fEtGHlLcDs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fEtGHlLcDs[/ame]

 

So, now that's 4 moves to finally punch his face. In traditional Japanese martial arts, there is an idea called 手先技, which basically means techniques done with the hands only. It is not a compliment. By grabbing and staying at the original distance, you aren't really at much of an advantage.

If you use your forearm to deflect and hands to hook instead, you can reach the same arm control as this video shows while being able to strike at any point without letting go the control. It is faster, more efficient, and easier to do. Your forearms are much less likely to miss the opponent than your hand grabbing at him, and you bring your structure into play because you can use your forearms/elbows to trap, instead of just your hand. You've already closed the distance, and can strike to boot. Instead of waiting until your 4th move to be able to strike, you can do so from the first move(or second at worst).

 

Of course to deal with average Joe, you may not need that many steps. But to be able to deal with someone on your own level, those extra steps will be needed. If you can "jump in", that will be the best.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6N38IAAhCk0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6N38IAAhCk0[/ame]

In the following picture, the blue dashed lines are what I want my arms to travel. Can I move my both arms and pass my opponent's head without being interrupted by my opponent? I can't always assume that and I have to prepare for it. In order to be able to eliminate my opponent's interruption to the minimum, The more that I can restrict my opponent's arms freedom, the better chance that I can enter "safely".

 

This is what you are talking about by using deflect without grab. It's different strategy and I like to call it "double spears" strategy. If you can use "deflect" to get "under hook", you won't need the wrist "grab". The only concern is when you rotate your arms in circle, your opponent can rotate his arms the same direction as you do, when that happen, it's very difficult for you to get into that "under hook" position. If your opponent's arms has a lot of freedom. He can do a lot of things. Of course when you use it against those who may not know how to rotate their arms along with yours, you don't have to worry about it. But that kind of training may give you false confidence. The moment that you have to deal with someone who has the skill, you may not have a good plan to support yourself.

It's your Ninjutsu thread and I really should not put up any more none Ninjutsu clips. I apology for that. But I'm very interest in the discussion of "grab or not grab". I just try to explain why I prefer "grab" instead of "not grab (redirect)". I do believe a clip is better than 1000 words.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=441UCIFAPck"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=441UCIFAPck[/ame]

 

PR,

At the end of the day, doesn't it come down to how many directions of movement you want to deny to whatever you've grabbed?

If you only need to limit movement in certain directions, then hooks and traps are fine (until you get to locking joints - whereby a trap, which is what I would call it, can limit all directions of movement). However, if you want to limit movement in all directions, then a grab is what you want.

I appreciate your points about muscling - though I'm not sure about the term "tendon strength"; I'd say it is doing a higher proportion of the work with core muscles and body weight.

 

No problem at all, post as many videos as you like(just try not to post the same ones over and over).

If the opponent is better, more the reason to try to streamline your attacks or counters. There is less leeway for error when they are better. I wouldn't think entering in square like that in between his arms would ever be safe. We usually enter at an angle, and even if our force is going towards his spine, we are entering in a way that seeks to control his shoulder joint to restrict his movement. Of course you want to restrict him, but not yourself at the same time.

In the video above, we wouldn't circle our hands. Circling means you are not sending your hands in the right direction for part of the circle. Instead, we use the elbow and changing angle of our body and footwork to do the circling for us. It is harder for him to circle with our motion and escape, harder for him to sense and figure out what you are doing, more direct, and also keeps you oriented on the direction at all times. It is more complex at first, but allows you to move his arms out of the way without actually trying to move his arms out of the way. This concept can be found in our ganseki nage and other basic techniques.

By hooking, you maintain freedom while restricting his movements, you can also bring your forearms and elbows into play as controlling factors, in essence giving you more hands. I wouldn't say grabs limit their movement in all directions, more so in single planes. Here is an example of what I meant about an arm bar:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah9mo1kW0H0"]Nihon Goshin Aikido - Arm Bar - YouTube[/ame]

This is good in one plane, downward, and the tori cannot hit with either hand until he has let go of the arm bar. He could hook with the hand controlling the wrist and maintain the same amount of control(using the thumb and space in between the thumb and index finger for example). The hand pushing down on the elbow is redundant because you can use your body weight to take him down from that position. Much better to use your forearm with your hand or fist pointing towards his head. You can strike and maintain the arm bar at the same time. Also, by using your forearm instead of your hand, it is easier to throw him in other directions(not just down).

 

Could you expand on that, please? I'm having a hard time visualising what you mean.

I don't disagree that hooks, traps and redirection are more efficient, give more options and, from an asthetic point of view, look more sophisticated.

However, fighting is a messy business, and at times I find grabbing hold of a sleave is a handy way of stopping people punching me in the face. Never say never, and all that. You are right that a grab can only resist motion in one direction/plane at a time, but the thing that distinguishes them from hooking/redirection is that you can change the direction of force at will and almost instantly. If you can stay ahead of the push-me-pull-you game, then you can maintain a good amount of control with minimal effort.

I'm not really disagreeing with you, just playing devil's advocate for a technique that is perfectly serviceable in certain contexts.

 

The only concern is the distance between your forearm and your shoulder is shorter than the distance between your hand and your shoulder. The longer that distance, the easier to put your opponent onto the ground with your arm bar.

 

That's why the gods gave us legs - so we never have to bend over!

 

You still have to put your opponent on the ground first before you can use your leg or knee.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6rS6I7k_Hc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6rS6I7k_Hc[/ame]

 

Looking at the aikido arm bar video, he is using his hand to push down on the opponent's elbow. This is silly because your sinking body weight is sufficient to take him down and you just need to keep his elbow joint locked(you could really do it with one or two fingers worth of pressure) while you sink down. Instead of pushing down in a single planar action, think of placing your forearm(near your own elbow) just above his elbow joint. You can still exert enough pressure to lock his elbow, but with your hand facing towards his face, you can actually strike his head or use that hand to intercept any attempted punches at the same time.

To do the same with the way demonstrated in the video, you would have to abandon the lock first. The direction shouldn't be perpendicular, but angular.

You can still change the direction of a hook or catch at will, in fact you have more freedom than you do with a grab. Take the arm bar we often see, and attempt to transition into a katatenage while maintaining a firm grab on his wrist. Your own grabbing prevents his hand from rotating inside your grip, making the technique harder to pull off. Think of having an arm bar like 2:19 of this first video and thinking how you would transition to the throw shown in the second video. Without allowing his hand and arm the freedom to move around to a new position, it would be impossible.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-y4KADkmEU"]Seoe, elbow break, basic - Ninjutsu technique for Akban wiki - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfuwPVOfGZ8"]Christian Tissier - Shiho Nage Katate dori - omote ura - YouTube[/ame]

The harder you grab, the more limited you become.

Sure, if you are arming the technique, you need the distance to put more pressure on his joints. However, if you use your body instead of your arms to do the technique, it doesn't matter how much space you have and you can change the direction of the throw easier. If you only want to worry about pushing him facedown in the manner shown in the aikido video, sure you can grab and do it. However, if you want to be able to strike, throw him in a different direction, or have the ability to change to another lock or down that lock in another plane, the way demonstrated in the video I posted is inadequate.

Not sure why you posted the picture of the guy standing bent over a downed opponent like that. It doesn't seem to be a good idea. Even if he is blocking or controlling the downed guy's left leg with his own, there are still counters he can do from there. Much better to keep his posture upright and use his legs to control the downed man's head/neck, torso, or legs.

 

You do see how this is redundant?

Poor posture from the outset, hand on the elbow, and knee in the wrong position. Much better to put your knee facing his head at his shoulder joint and you can still exert pressure on his elbow with your leg/body. Also, his arm would be more perpendicular to the ground, not at that angle. Because he's far away and facing the wrong direction, any downward blow like the one demonstrated at the end of the video, will be weak also.