TKD vs Tang Soo Do?

Hoi bigmikey,

If you're looking for some sparring experience, it actually may be a good idea to cross-train in MT. I have a similar out look to the traditional arts as you do, but because sparring is rare in my school, I decided to get some sparring experiences, and adimttedly to see whether I was actually learning anything in my TKD class, so I joined a MT class. There's no doubt that MT sparring really let's you gauge how well you can fight (and even improve the way you fight). I certainly appreciate the classes.

But since you are a HKD guy, I'd suggest a Sanda (San Shou) class. Sanda is roughly MT with throws, which I think would be more interesting for a HKD guy. But I'm not to sure how easy it is to find a Sanda school.

Something that may be even more interesting to you is Enshin kaikan Karate. From what I understand, it's a mixture of Kyokushin Karate and Judo.


With regards to TSD:
My understanding of TSD is that it's very much like "old-school" TKD, and thus doesn't really practice sparring, or at least not often. I think they practice mostly forms and other techniques. But I must admit that I know very little about the art itsself.

 

Isn't TSD basically korean shotokan?
They even to the Heian katas don't they?

 

TSD came from shotokan karate. Hmm i dunno if its the same katas though.

 

I actually did similar in my 20s. What did you find? I actually was pleased with how well my TKD prepared me. The main thing I had to get over right away was to expect low kicks and to also deliver low kicks. My first sparring match was a bit of a surprise when he started turning into my leg into mush (with control of course, because it was just sparring).

But I found that I had a couple of surprises of my own that they weren't expecting. For example with my jumping side kick I easily cleared the ropes and ran right out of that place. (kidding, kidding)

Actually I found lead leg side to front quad worked very well as well as spinning kicks.

I've also sparred with some guys with an MMA ruleset. One of the guys I have sparred is actually in the UFC now. Here, however, things turned out differently. Nothing had prepared me for a strong take down artist (like a wrestler who had been to nationals) and ground work. Which is why I picked up a grappling style.

From the beginning in the old days the TKD schools sparred very frequently. People still tell stories about someone going through the store front window of sparring at our school 'back in the day'. One of our senior black belts won a NW Full Contact tournament. Sparring was very much a part of old school TKD and TSD.

 

Pyung Ahn = Pinan/Heian
Naihanji = Naihanchi
Kong Sang Koon = Kusanku

Just a few examples. There is more, but this is just for starters. The original TSD forms came directly from Shotokan, though they have been altered from the originals to reflect a more Korean taste. Hwang Kee also added a few new forms to the syllabus such as Sorim Jang Kwan, the Yuk Ro forms, and even a Tai Chi Chuan form.

 

Haha, you actually sound like you're telling my story too.

To be frankly honest, I was surprised at how easy it was to adapt to the MT setting, and how well I was able to keep up with sparring, I wasn't a god or anything, but I definatly wasn't the weakest in the class. The low kicks were a surprise indeed, but when I learnt how to use them properly, that became their problem :evil:.

One thing that I had noticed, like you said, is that they weren't expecting kicks with the lead leg, something very TKD, but not so much MT. Also MT seems to focus on standing on one side (most often with the right leg in the back), and in TKD/Karate we use both sides to fight with. So during sparring I would confuse a lot of the guys by switching stances; the teacher didn't like me doing that much, but I guess he knows old habits die hard .

I think I also learnt some pretty good footwork from TKD, which got me a comment from the instructor, so can't complain about that.

Haven't sparred MMA, but I'm planning on taking a Judo class later this year to at least get some basic practice of grappling.

Oh, well I'll be damned!! This is just from my experiences in training in Chung Do Kwan. We mostly did forms, self-defence, conditioning, and technique repetitions. All sparring was done when "off the floor". But it wasn't really a part of the curriculum.

 

TKD and TSD were both basically Korean Shotokan, but they branched out and became their own unique styles with TSD remaining closer to the root art, depending on which school and org you belong to. TSD can be anywhere from hard and shotokan-like to soft and internal Kung Fu-like. Older TSD tends to be more like Shotokan with higher kicks.

Edit: I know that you personally are aware of this, I was just using your post to make a general point.

 

my school focuses on forms/katas alot. if I do find a good muay Thai school or kick boxing club I will be joining that most likely. however I still do sparring. but no pad work or mit punching or anything. but that depends on the school doesn't it. anyway I hope you find a nice club with lots of sparring .

 

I know what you mean. I've trained in styles that are considered far superior to Shotokan Karate in the areas of sparring and fighting, but I keep coming "home" to Shotokan again and again because it just does it for me. It is a certain feeling that I get from the training, it just feels right for some reason. I'm big on the traditions and the bowing and use of Japanese language, too .

 

Sounds like we have had similar experiences. I did love the MT sparring and I think it is a good thing and teaches a lot.

I haven't done it in years. Only sports style grappling (which I do a couple times a week). I didn't feel too bad about being clueless in grappling since it wasn't like guys with a boxing base or MT base fared too much better. But our instinct to kick often and kick high is not the best thing in terms of take down defense, ha ha! Kicks definitely need some set up.

At any rate it is all interesting stuff. But the main thing I took away from cross-training was overall it is a good art. Some weaknesses, yes, but there are great things too.

 

I've never got to do tsd before, I tried to join a local club a few years back but cos I had tkd experience the instructor turned me away! Was a bit gutted tbh. Maybe I'll check it out again when I move to nz. I have this corny dream of becoming proficient in all Korean arts, though not happening so far. Though my first love is still tkd

 

lol I think my master also dislikes taekwondo for some reason. he said if he did taekwondo instead of Tangsoodo he would be a much much higher belt as Tangsoodo is far harder... I don't know but i ccan't believe that completely.

if you're still interested then all I can say is most Tangsoodo clubs are Derrived from shotokab karate and theredore are usually all kata based and very little if any sparring
however this may vary from schools

 

You're not alone. I'm in the same boat. I've had a fair amount of exposure to Muay Thai--I have visited the local schools to get exposed to the style and even wrote an article about Muay Thai with Mark Dellagrotte for Ultimate MMA magazine--but my heart is still in the karate/taekwondo/kung fu arena.

It's difficult for me because I'm somewhat involved in the MMA industry as a journalist and I'm a HUGE MMA fan. And I completely recognize the way that arts like muay Thai have pointed out the shortcomings of traditional training. I know it's hard to find good schools that are actually interested in developing effective fighters, but even in acknowledging that, I refuse to give up.

I am pretty intent in finding a school that not only teaches one of the traditional Japanese/Korean/Chinese styles, but that does so in a way that is informed by today's MMA-infused martial arts environment.

 

I think it's value is determined by the practitioner. I know this is obvious, but feel like it deserves to be pointed out.

Personally, I have a strange relationship with the traditions and philosophy of the TMAs. I agree that sometimes they seem a bit silly. But at the same time I am drawn to them and to that aspect of martial arts.

Then again, not to get too philosophical, but if those traditions are silly, should we argue that the very idea of tradition is silly? Is it silly to open one present on Christmas Even and leave the rest for Christmas morning, as some families do? Or silly for someone who is religious to learn and live by the teachings of his or her faith?

I guess for me it depends on the teaching/rule/tradition. It can't seem arbitrary. And the reason has to be sound.

For instance, when I briefly did ITF TKD there were so many rules. One that bothered me was the "no teaching" rule. That is, if you're not a black belt, you can't teach anyone how to do anything.

I remember I had a specific situation where a guy I was working with was trying to learn chon-ji. He was basically mangling everything from the stances (standing side-facing when he should've been front facing, for instance) to the way the punches and blocks were done. I could've easily fixed his errors, but because of this rule, I can't help the guy.

While I understand the logic behind he rule, I still thought it was stupid. If nothing else, it should be that you can't teach someone who is above your rank.

THAT's the kind of stuff that gets on my nerves.

But I will say that I miss being head-over-heels in love with everything about TMAs to the point to where I soaked it up like a sponge. When I was a kid, I was totally in love with everything to do with martial arts, and enjoyed the mystique of it all. In a way, I hate that I have become disillusioned. But even if my love is imperfect, that love is still there over 20 years after I first stepped foot into a dojo.

 

SPX, while I understand your probs with the no teaching rule, at my club, it's more like don't teach unless your asked. I (as well as most of the people here) have seen those people of high colour belt rank who you've no idea how they even got there! You wouldn't want a useless blue belt for instance trying to correct a white or yellow belt, you'd just end up with 2 students making the same mistakes! We do have colour belts helping, but only ones who are suitable to do so.

 

Gotcha. Like I said, I do understand the purpose of the rule. The be honest, I'm not big on rules, or structured militaristic environments anyway. I prefer easier going training situations where the etiquette is only taken as seriously as it really needs to be.

I used to be involved in a judo class where we'd bow in and follow the necessary protocol, but our instructor, Greg Olson, wasn't Sensei Olson, or even Mr. Olson, he was just Greg. So there was some tradition and formality, but in a very relaxed environment.

Regarding the no-teaching rule, I remember one day when I was first trying to learn chon-ji, a lot of us were gathered together outside of the school. We weren't even in the school yet, and I just asked someone to show me the next few moves for the form. No problem, right? Just . . . do the form. Go for it.

Well the girl I was asking was a yellow belt and she almost started to do it, and then paused with this very conflicted look on her face, and then said, No, no, I can't do it . . . I'm not allowed to teach. And I'm sitting there thinking that all I asked someone to do was show me what moves come next.

It was times like that where, honestly, the whole thing felt more like a cult than a martial art.

 

I've genuinely never heard of the rule being that strictly enforced. I assumed you meant officially help out. I've always felt comfortable asking for a little help from other students.

 

Sorry... but thats just pathetic and possibly a reason/way for clubs to get £££ for instructors courses!

In my club, we run instructors courses, but they use to be free (though now students are charged the associations costs for a handbook and apprasial - though we still charge nowt), as it stream lines the way they teach, as opposed to what they teach!

ANY student who has attained a rank SHOULD be able to teach that rank, although some are better at transmitting skills & knowledge than others to be sure (thats the whole purpose of an instructors course).

To teach a group, sure, some benefit from such courses, but to simply show what you know, requires no assesment and no course what so ever... monkey see, monkey do.. as the saying goes... and for those clubs that feel they have mickey mouse grades at certain levels, so are unsure if they should be showing stuff or not... well, maybe the club/org shouldnt have promoted them to that level to begin with and TBH, if they have, then I would question such an org and their methods/reasons and TBH.. integrity!

Sorry, buts thats how it is!

Stuart

Ps. I've never heard of an "official" rule like that!

 

I am sorry but there is no rule in the ITF lime this at all. My guess would be that is what someone who may or may not have been an ITF BB & either misinterpreted or misrepresented something by mistake or for some selfish reason.
The only rule is that ONLY a certified international instructor may test students or teach abroad. They can also issue gup certificates in their name.
The ITF lays out guidelines for asst BB instructors under 4th Dan, who are not certified II. These guidelines show which color belt ranks 1st, 2nd & 3rd degrees can teach. Of course all asst instructors must be under the guidance of a certified international instructor.

Any student can & should be encouraged to share, guide, advise & teach things to other students. That is Martial way, IMHO & it is a great way to build spirit among the students & even help those that are offering the guidance & advice to grow & learn. We learn when we help others!

The danger lies in when unqualified or those that don't know, assist. As they usually or can wind up showing juniors or others the wrong way. I think we have far too watered down already MAs, don't you?