TKD Owns

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by NaughtyKnight, Apr 8, 2005.

  1. Taliar

    Taliar Train harder!

    This seems to be the main sticking point in this discussion. Now admittedly I am still a newbie in MA with only a few years training, yet I think that we do drill them in a sensible and alive manner. Based on articles I have seen on the web, in the MA press, stuff on this web site and from attending and watching other MA's I think that we train in a very similar way to arts like MT etc. (there is a MT club next to us that trains at exactly the same time and we can see them training from our room, whenever I look over they are doing the same sort of drills and padwork with a similar level of contact as we have.

    Admittedly we will spend some time each week on things like patterns that could be better spent if you are looking for full contact comps. Now we may be a very good club and they could be very poor, (though the chief instructor has a good record, and the female assistant coach is ranked 9 in the world according to their publicity posters Jamie rickets is her name I think).

    So based on my personal experience I can't see that there exists the huge gap in training methodolgy at local club level. I can't comment on 'professional training' as i have no experience of it. While I may be wrong and could change my mind as my experience grows, that is what i believe at the moment, and discussions like this hopefully keep us re-evaluating what we do all the time.
     
  2. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    You can use either. I usually hit the kicking leg as its more vunerable while flying towards me.

    The way I do it is like this. (we will say that i have my left foot forward)

    1. when they start kick I lift left leg and move it behind me without planting it (this changes my stance, and moves me out of the way from the kick)

    2. I jump up off my kicking leg while the supporting leg is still lifted. I roundhouse kick their thigh landing on my supporting leg just before i kick (or after kick).
     
  3. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    This is one time I am going to have to back up KC, though I would not personally use some of the methods he describes. Using a lead leg round, then rechambering and firing a side kick can be a devastating combo in full contact competition. It has been successfully used by champions like Don Wilson, Benny Urquidez, and even occasionally by Joe Lewis (though this type of combo was about the only time he would ever chamber his side kick). However, the kickboxer who developed this to the highest levels was Bill Wallace. He modified the chamber so that side, hook and round kicks were fired from the same chamber, eliminating telegraphing. Also, this gave far better protection during the kick and both high and low kicks are in the power line. I've used this effectively in full contact competition myself.

    As far as WTF TKD being point oriented, sadly that is what it has degenerated into, but this was not always the case. Back in the '70's and early '80's whan I was coming up in nat'l and internat'l competition, we were always looking for the KO and ANY point that was scored truly HAD to displace the body (trembling shock) rather than just slap the chest protector (hogu). Due to the extreme amounts of politics, nationalism, and racism in the sport, not to mention the (IMO ridiculous) rule of no punching to the face or head, many of the better fighters left TKD competition and migrated over to "full-contact karate"(i.e. kickboxing). It should be noted that TKD was the first full contact asian martial sport available to a broad range of competitors in the US (I can't speak for Europe), and MANY of the early kickboxing greats came from a TKD background.

    When this shift happened, you also saw the direction of sport taekwon take a turn (IMO for the worst, though by this time I had went on to kickboxing and later MMA). It became a speed game and who could slap the chest protector the most times. Olympic style competitors and their coaches modified kicks away from what would be effective in a real fight and towards what would score points under the new judging criteria :bang: . The WTF has recognized that this has become a real problem and were taking steps to make reforms and changes, but with all the internal turmoil and scandals and restructuring, I don't know where this has gotten to.

    The early generations of instructors and practitioners were hardcore fighters and VERY concerned with being effective for real, as they were either training for military combat or were fighting in the mean streets of post-war Korea. These guys had the warrior mindset, hard practical training, and a lot of real life experience to back it up. Many of the second and third generation kept up the intensity and were more willing to experiment and begin cross training and tried (usually with a good deal of success) to improve training methods. Some of this group, and even a few notables of the first generation of instructors and competitors, did water things down for themselves and their students. But for the most part, it was the later generations who did a lot to tarnish the sport and the rep of the art of TKD.

    In fairness, it should be remembered that some of the fighters and instructors who were pioneers in full contact still consider themselves TKD stylists (or at least having a TKD base) and have helped in and contributed to the evolution of both kickboxing and MMA. Some of them consider themselves to be at least as much the inheritors of TKD's legacy as the olympic guys.
     
  4. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    Cheers for the back up mate, I knew it wasnt just me and my school that uses that combo.

    Great post aswell. :D
     
  5. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    That was what was worrying me why I asked.
     
  6. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Kicking the kicking leg - I am 100% not with you on this one, it is the kind of crap Ninjitsu used to get people to try to do. Against someone who can kick you have no chance unless they are in compliant mode.

    Point 2, Thought TKD did not do much jumping, this to me is (provided I am picturing it right) is the kind of stuff that I think gets TKD the bad rep it has. Someone has to show me some pic's or KC can you put a vid up of this as it sounds very bad mate. (this said provided I am visualising it right) :Angel:
     
  7. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook


    KJ - In Kickboxing the arc of the kick is aimed higher as body shots and it can be done then as you are not trying to get around a Thai Style defence where there leg is in the way of your space. This example was for a combo coming off a Low Leg (MT style kick). I could do it from a Body shot or a head kick (both at a push granted as KC is talking about not putting the kicking leg down at all) I just cant see it being done when the first attack is a low kick against a MT style defence as when trying it I was either too close and no room or too far away, we are talking about the kick landing on the low kick as well.

    Don Wilson, Benny Urquidez and Joe Lewis are kickboxers I think not TKD people - could be wrong but did not know they were TKD backgrounds.

    Granted in the 70's TKD could be a good style like many of the other core arts, Karate etc but as time has worn on people have let standards slip and I am with you on this.

    For the pioneers of of MMA etc having a TKD base I am not aware of any world circuit top flight level fighters having a main stay style of TKD apart from perhaps Genki but I am usure if thats TKD or just him messing about. Can you tell me who has as looking on interviews I have seen and watching fight footage (lots of) I am not honestly aware on anyone having a major TKD background. I can't think of any world level MMA fighters who have it as the main of there Trad backgrounds.
    :Angel:

    I do agree the style was good in its early days when taken from a hardcore Karate base so 100% behind you on that as it was closer to Original Karate than what is around mostly today, (still most Karate is not hardcore anymore, but you know what I mean.)
     
  8. Goju

    Goju Yellow Belt

    I wish karate was still hardcore. :cry:


    I thought Sudo had a karate background, not tkd.

    ???? anyone know ?????
     
  9. Yukimushu

    Yukimushu MMA addict

    Genki Sudo started off Wrestling as a child, then got into Muay Thai.

    He's just one wild fighter :D

    The only pro fighters I know with a background in Tae Kwon Do are Bas Rutten (he used to study it as a child, but later moved onto Thai boxing) and Mark Weir.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2005
  10. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    First, even though Wallace, Urquidez, Wilson, and Lewis are kickboxers, they all used a round into sidekick combo w/ great results and most of them used it fairly often. I agree that this combo is for use with the lead leg round, using it as a probing strike and following it up with the side kick as the power shot. This works best from the modified chamber developed by Wallace since said chamber does not telegraph and has better protection while throwing the combo. This combo has been used quite succesfully in full contact competition on a world class level many times. That was my point, and that it doesn't need to be a MT round to be effective in full contact. After nearly 25 years of cross training in MT, I sees both versions of the kick as valid tools for different purposes. Like comparing a jab to a hook.

    Second, my main point was that many kickboxing pioneers came from a TKD background and still refer to themselves as TKD masters. Examples of this would include guys like retired light-heavyweight champ Jeff Smith (who is either an 8th or 9th dan under Jhoon Rhee's TKD org.) and Troy Dorsey (a TKD 7th dan) who was the first (and IIRC only) man to hold legitimate world titles in both kickboxing and boxing. There are too many others to list, but their contributions to full contact fighting have definitely had an impact on modern MMA fighters. Other examples include how Frank Shamrock has crossed trained at our schools (OK, I admit that we are MMA, but we came from a TKD base) 2-3x/wk. for the last several years to improve his striking. (I will also freely admit that his contributions have taken our NHB and ground game to a much higher level than the straight BJJ we were doing prior to this.) We still have some of our people who do Olympic style on a nat'l and international, and even Olympic level, even though are standard cirriculum doesn't go this direction. But modern MMA and NHB borrows from and has influences from many sources, not just MT and BJJ.
     
  11. DEATHskull

    DEATHskull TKD Bearfighter

    That's true, he has been studying Muay Thai with Bas Rutten, but in this interview, he says that he just recently started training in Kyokushinkai. Also, it says that alot of the unorthodox stuff he uses he learned from videogames (the translation is bad and says tv games though)
    http://www.geocities.com/global_training_report/genki.htm

    Here's a quote from Bas Rutten's website, "Karate and Tae Kwon Do were first and from those I moved over to Thai-boxing."
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2005
  12. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    Complient mode? Mate tell that to the people that I have, and countelss other have, used against.

    We dont jump 100 metres into the air. We If we are even in the air when we jump, its as your foot is about to land.

    Trust me, this kick aint the one that give TKD a bad rep. I can easily use it in full contact sparing. Its called timing my friend.
     
  13. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    We are talking about it being used with the side kick following a LOW LEG KICK here not a torse or head shot as I have said its possible from this.

    LOW leg kick hitting a Thai style defence then being brought into a side kick. This is the only thing I am saying is impractical.

    KC put a video up of you doing it and I will buy it. Hell if there is good power in it I will put KC proved me wrong in my signature.

    As said a powerful low leg kick hitting a Thai defence then without putting your foot down turning it into a powerful side kick.

    (KJ) Also all the above people Joe Lewis etc were kickboxers so were not doing low kicks as this is not a legal move in kickboxing. As said we are talking about a LOW KICK only here. I have said in medium contact I do use this cobo following on from a head or torso height round kick, I do however put my foot down to gain more power in the side kick. Its the low kick version that is defended I am disputing.
     
  14. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    ./me pours petrol on the fire

    http://www.fightclips.net/teakwondo.htm

    Their appears to be a clip here of a tkd guy beating a kyokushin guy, in addition to three clips of random trainning and a MT fighter beating a TKD fighter that I think everyone has seen.
     
  15. rtkd-badger

    rtkd-badger Fundimentaly Manipulated

    Yeah but I would have to say that I could flog **** and pickhandles out of that TKD dude. :D
     
  16. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    The Karate vs TKD fight they both are wearing TKD outfits and fight like TKD people, there is plenty of TKD there but no Kyokushin guy there just two TKD people kicking each other with no defence at all.

    Very supple people but its 2 TKD people I think.
     
  17. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    That was a bit lame. It has to be said. Even if the other guy was a kyokushinka he really needs to learn how to move out of the way when he sees a guy running at him...
     
  18. Yukimushu

    Yukimushu MMA addict

    I knew Bas Rutten had history in Tae Kwon Do; but I never knew Sudo had any history in Kyokushinkai :) We learn something new every day :D
     
  19. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    I aint got a camera. I got a better idea. I'll show you at MAP World. Then you can put "KC was right, and he drank me under the table." :D
     
  20. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    One of them was wearing a TKD BB uniform and the other one was wearing a karate gi, also they where fighting under kyokushin rules (Full contact, no punches to the head). Looks to me like a kyokushin guy getting beat by a better TKD guy.
     

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