TKD and ground fighting.

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Taeho, Oct 12, 2004.

  1. Taeho

    Taeho New Member

    My instructor pointed out that one of the most common misconceptions about Taekwondo is that if you get us on the ground, it's over.

    So, last night we devoted an entire class on Taekwondo ground fighting. We concentrated on Taekwondo techniques which could still be performed from an "on ground" position.

    A little history on myself: I was a high school wrestler. I didn't compete (parents would not let), but was an avid in school participant. This was 18+ years ago.

    In class last night, I discovered something, I was unbeatable in an on ground situation. The combination of my Taekwondo training and wrestling skills, which I have not used in nearly 20 years, have made a pretty good combination. My instructor immediately notice that I was a wrestler and pointed it out to the class. :love:

    The whole point of this post?

    My question to you, as a Taekwondo practitioner is:

    Does your club teach on ground fighting techniques in combination with Taekwondo?

    Or have you "outsourced" your on ground fighting training to other art forms?

    TKDshane :D
     
  2. kcatcher

    kcatcher Banned Banned

    Are you sure that your instructor's groundfighting techniques are...
    a. Credible in the wider context of grappling and/or SD
    b. Not outsourced
    c. Part of TKD as in the 'official' form

    As a side note, I have never seen credible groundfightinmg in any TKD club that I've trained at with the exception of a guy who also trained BJJ (the source of his SD groundfighting).
     
  3. Taeho

    Taeho New Member

    This is my point. Groundfighting is not officially part of the TKD corriculum, but my instructor found it important enough to include it. Mostly he showed us that there are many techniques that can be incorporated. He also stressed the need to include this type of fight training to make us well rounded street fighter, especially with the belief that TKD fighters are "aerial" fighters only.
     
  4. cjw314

    cjw314 New Member

    I just spoke w/ my instructor re: this last night, and he showed me, briefly, two kicking defensive techs 'for groundfighting'. I wouldn't call them groundfighting, as such, as in my mind I imagine grappling/wrestling as groundfighting, but if someone comes at you, and you're on the ground - without being 'mounted', that is - then they seemed effective enough.

    I asked if they were 'TKD' or some adaptation of Kyosahnim's 'what will work' style - and he said TKD, but not something I'll be learning soon, as I'm a whitey.
     
  5. angry

    angry Valued Member

    What is actually true tkd?

    I was taught tkd which included both aspects of yudo (judo) and hapkido as part of the normal training. My brother earned a brown belt in judo back in 1990 and his training throw wise was very similar to mine! Master Lee learnt these skills in the 50's and has been teaching this way in Australia for over 30 years. I have always considered his methods as traditional tkd and have no reason not to think that it isn't. You could say that because he learnt a lot of his skills prior to the naming of tkd he teaches something else but then all the older koreans do!

    Much of what is perceived about each individual art is only a part of it's whole. I think that the final truth we all need to except is that all martial arts are just that "studying of fighting!" Individuals guide and focus their arts towards their strengths or to cover weaknesses and over many years things have become quite diverse. We cannot say that we train in a martial art and blindly miss areas of fighting that we should at least consider as possible methods of attack.

    Tonight (last night actually its late) I spent nearly the entire class teaching one technique. The students didn't know that it was only one as I showed several variations of it but simply it was a block or defence against one hand grab into a wrist lock than a hip throw. This I teach all as tae kwon do as it is as I was taught. None of my students would question that fact as they are more concerned with learning than quibbling over what is true tkd and what is something else.
     
  6. carlos

    carlos MAP Hoo Flung Dung Expert Supporter

    True TKD? Surely that is the TKD that you practice and believe in?

    SD groundfighting - I have never been taught anything that would come in useful in a "street" application. The problem that I had with it is this - because it was something new, my training partner was being very soft and pliable - this would not happen in a "street" situation. Your opponent will be moving around and trying to smash you in. They won't lie there and take what you dish out.

    Yet when I struggled against him - he got very mardy with me.

    If you want specialist groundfighing, go to a specialist in groundfighting. If you want stand up fighting - do the same.
     
  7. kcatcher

    kcatcher Banned Banned

    So you're saying that if you want SD don't go to TKD?
     
  8. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    here we go~~


    If it doesn't you NEED to cross train simple as that.

    More important for me personally is that I learned rape defense techniques from the ground as you won't find that covered in most martial art styles now do you? You should equip yourself with all the necessary defenses that you will more than likely use.
    I don't feel it appropriate for me to learn how to streetfight any more than the average guy need to learn how to escape from being raped.
     
  9. Zen TKD Warrior

    Zen TKD Warrior New Member

    Ground fighting was one aspeect of TKD that led me away from it. Not doing any - to put a point on it. Way back when I was a green belt, my instructor wanted to give a demo of how hard it would be for a person to escape from someone who had you in "The Mounted" poistion. I layed on the floor. He got the mount. The class watched. He said "Now, try to get out." I bucked him up, and escaped out the back door. As I stood up, he, still on the floor and red faced, looked at me and asked, "How did you do that?"

    We didn't do ground fighting again until I was well in the black belt stages.

    Another time, another instructor and I were talking about an upcoming Pride fight. Told him I had several highlight clips downloaded from Sherdog.com. He asked if I could burn a disc for him. Later that week brought him the disc. A day later, at class again, my head instructor goes into a rant about how TKD is the bomb and how he could take any BJJ guy or MMA guy. Then he said, "If anyone here thinks they can take me on using BJJ or anything else they need to step up now." He looked at me the whole time. That was the day I decided I needed to look for another school.

    In conclusion, no, TKD has no ground game and most instructors in TKD - at least my old org. - don't know and won't train you in it.
     
  10. jasonservis

    jasonservis Avid crosstrainer

    we have been training recently in the advanced class jujuitsu. that way on the street if you get on the ground you wont get lost there either. ;)
     
  11. carlos

    carlos MAP Hoo Flung Dung Expert Supporter

    No.

    If you want SD, go to any martial art and think about the application of the techniques.

    If you want groundfighting, go somewhere that specialises in it.

    If you want stand up fighting, go somewhere that specialises in it.

    Why learn 100 techniques for 1 defence. Why not learn 1 techniqe and do it 100 times. Specialisation and training is the way.
     
  12. dynamic_energy

    dynamic_energy New Member

    My club teach us basic SD, but not ground fighting. As i know that ground fighting is very important, so i train BJJ.. ground fighting is very important..
     
  13. megk

    megk New Member

    I totally agree, I too am training in TKD for several reasons, one of which is that I need to know how to handle myself in any situation. I am learning ground techniques as a red belt because if I am attacked and knocked down I need to know how to prevent a man from getting on me, and I need to know how to get a man off of me if he manages to get that far. I also need to know how to street fight because my goal is to be aware of my sorroundings and face an attacker rather then be jumped.
     
  14. Taeho

    Taeho New Member

    Yes, being an effective ground fighter or grapler is very important in SD. As I said, before, my high school wrestling experience has helped me alot in my all around SD.

    Cross training is important. I personally don't beleive that there is any single art which will protect you in all situations. You need to be versed in many forms to be a well rounded fighter.

    TKDshane
     
  15. notquitedead

    notquitedead used to be Pankration90

    The funny thing is that if you go and try to "specialize", then most of the styles you will try to learn will teach you many techniques instead of teaching you a few good ones and making you work on those. It's mostly the styles that don't specialize in one range/phase that teach you a few useful things and then make you practice those a lot (ie RBSD styles, MMA, etc).
     
  16. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    Our schools have now evolved to MMA from what was originally mostly a TKD base, though we did train hapkido ad yudo(judo) in the old days, too. Back in the 70's when we were mostly TKD, we did a lot of groudfighting in our sparring, though. These were back in the bare knuckle days and we would work a lot of sweeps and takedowns and then we would continue until they called "break". It was mostly clinch and strike work from the ground and not nearly as well evolved and sophisticated as what we now use, but it was definitely there.(In fact, my previous three years of jujitsu, made this my best survival tool against some of the older and larger opponents I sparred in class when i was young.)

    I believe a lot of the seperation between stand up and ground work, espescially grappling, is due to the use of safety equipment. People (and if not the students or parents, at least the isurance companies) were hesitant to practice the striking aspects with any real contact w/o the gear on, and when you shifted to the ground or grappling, it shredded the gear in no time. This gets expensive very quickly.

    One thing that I want to point out is that despite the popularity of BJJ as the "flavor of the month", ground striking is just as important to a complete ground game. In fact, some experts like RAMCAT's Peyton Quinn feel that for reality-based self defense, ground striking is far more important. I teach BJJ as a major part of our cirriculum, but I know from my own experience that in NHB training, grappling is just (an important) part of the ground game.
     
  17. d33pthought

    d33pthought New Member

    I'm not sure if we do any sort of 'ground TKD' at my school. There are a few black belt one-steps where you're attacking from a just-fallen-down position, but other than that I'm not sure. I do hope we practice breakfalls for a reason, though.
     
  18. Taeho

    Taeho New Member

    :D
     
  19. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Some people get sucked into the arguments of "TKD has no groundfighting" and "TKD does have groundfighting because I have seen it in so-and-so's book." Personally, I really don't care whether TKD has or had groundfighting in it from the beginning. In my opinion, groundfighting is an essential set of skills needed by all martial artists today in order to be "that much better prepared" for a real situation.

    From a TKD perspective, we teach a lot of striking techniques from a standing position and this is where we want to remain. Many of our ground techniques revolve around getting back to our feet. But, we also focus on strikes on the ground and defences on the ground (Kneeling, sitting, on all fours, on our side or back).

    Since our grandmaster didn't pass down a ground fighting system aside from the previous paragraph, the remainder we have had to put in place for ourselves. Rather than begin "from scratch", most of the techniques came through the Combat Hapkido system of ground grappling as developed by Pedro Rodrigues and now continued by Carlson Gracie. We practice grappling in a BJJ vein for the most part... but by incorportaing these skills into our TKD skills, we also have teach and develop the bridge between the techniques so that we can go from a TKD striking base into BJJ grappling without hesitation. We try to get 5-6 hours per month of training on the ground.

    I would say that we are mainly a striking school but have a basic knowledge of grappling and employ it for self defence with an end goal of trying to get back up and strike (or run).
     
  20. Mr. Anderson

    Mr. Anderson Valued Member

    As mentioned above, it really depends on the school and the instructor on how much ground fighting will be taught. I know at our school that part of our sef defense curricullum (probably only around 20%) is dedicated to this. Would I like to see more? Probably not.
     

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