Tire Striking. Generating Power.

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by BahadZubu, Jul 11, 2016.

  1. BahadZubu

    BahadZubu Valued Member

    Hello all!

    I've been a long time lurker on the forums and have posted in the past under a different name. But have grown up a bit in the martial arts and in my personal life, so decided to start a new. I practice Bahad Zubu under GM Yuli Romo and I am an instructor under two BZ midwest Guros. Hoping to visit GM again this coming Sept. and get my Guro cert.

    I also box. Currently training out of Wild Card (when in LA).

    In Bahad Zubu we do things a lot differently compared to other FMA's. GM Yuli likes to refer to his art as "Stick Boxing" and the more my knowledge of boxing and BZ grows the more I see the similarities.

    Below is a link to a video on tire striking and proper body mechanics. In BZ tire striking is very important. Similar to a heavy bag in boxing we use the tire mostly to work on power generation as well as distancing and footwork.

    Please take a look at the video. All comments/criticism welcome. Thanks!

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQN21x8MU2A"]How to strike with power (stick/blade) - YouTube[/ame]

  2. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Nice video. We just hit heavy bags with sticks. I think the tire could allow for harder hits since in the back of my mind I'm kind of concerned about ruining the bag.

    What do you do about low targets? Do you stack two tires, one for high, one for low hits?

    Edit: I did see something to criticize about or question. Your hand is holding the stick at the very end. Is that correct for how you were taught? If so, reminds me a lot of sabre/cutlass.
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2016
  3. Guitar Nado

    Guitar Nado Valued Member

    welcome to MAP! I like your post, I have heard of using tires for kali - if I can figure out a way of putting this into practice without angering the wife, I might do it. I have tried foam over pvc sticks on the wavemaster that is in my garage, but I think rattan on to tire would be a lot better!
  4. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    I will say though that for myself and a lot of others the stick is an analogue for a blade. When you have well sharpened steel the amount of force used in "stick patty cake" is more than sufficient to sever a tendon or artery. And since Filipino blades are often relatively light speed ends up being more important than power. For stick I would say you need a bit more hip torque on your angle one strike. It looks like a lot of the time you're keeping the foot planted so the hip doesn't turn... but you have good mobility and nice follow through. Keep it up!
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2016
  5. BahadZubu

    BahadZubu Valued Member

    Thanks for the reply.

    If you are hitting a heavy bag, you should be splitting it easily.

    You can still hit upward angles on the tire. For very low strikes, the same body mechanics apply.

    In BZ we intentionally hold the stick/blade at the very end. This is for 2 reasons 1. if you hold your weapon choked up, it is much easier to disarm. 2. Ideally you should be holding your weapon with the bottom three fingers only, very relaxed and only tense upon impact. Like a punch. This also makes it easier to simply 'choke up' on the stick in close range. You only need relax your hand.
  6. BahadZubu

    BahadZubu Valued Member

    Thanks for your reply.

    Having cut with a fair amount of very sharp blades, in my experience it actually takes quite a bit of force and/or dead on edge positioning to ensure a nice cut. In most of the 'stick patty cake' videos I see, I would gladly take one to give one.

    As for your criticism on the hip, yes I agree! I say "turn the hips" but I don't turn enough on the first strike. something to work on. Thanks!
  7. BahadZubu

    BahadZubu Valued Member

    Also, I should say BZ is also primarily a blade style. GM Yuli Romo being one of the most senior students of Tatang Ilustrisimo.
  8. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Tires (and wooden light/phone poles) also provide much more rebound for you to deal with than heavy bags.Enhances awareness training-as you can get thumped w/your own weapon if your mind wanders!

    Build a stack of tires taller than yourself for static target multi level practice.Also hang one or more from chain so they move about a bit when struck.

    !Remember! to wear a face mask of some sort as it is now old news that hitting tires = breathing rubber dust.

    Welcome to MAP, BZ!
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2016
  9. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    I would say you're assuming the opponent is going to miss his target. Where you would be willing to take one is as important. For unarmoured fighting I would far rather have a nimble and accurate blade like a more hilt balanced sidesword, which unsurprisingly was part of the evolution into the rapier for unarmoured civilian defence, than something like a falchion which has all the delivery power you could want. Context is important in which blade you're using and therefore which attributes you're favouring.

    You need to sharpen your blades better :D Just like an using an axe, the rule is to let the tool do the work. If cutting were about imparted force bigger stronger people would be able to cut a lot better but that's not really true. Technique and blade properties are far bigger factors in a good cut. You won't make a thin light blade cleave much more just by swinging it harder and you can cut pretty well with more tip heavy blades just by letting the blade swing freely.

    Power with a blade might better be described in three phases:
    1. Overcoming moment of inertia - initiation
    2. Alignment to the target during travel - stabilization
    3. Absorbing force transferred from the target - impact

    Only #1 requires a fair amount of force relative to the others. #2 doesn't require much force and #3 is more about body structure on impact, so I wouldn't say the power is as much for the cut as it is for initial acceleration. Maybe that's more semantics than anything else.

    It depends on what type of blade you're working with but you must've seen some pretty bad videos :D

    And to be fair I'm sure there are many things you could pick apart with my stick work :D
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Doesn't that make them not so great as training tools then? Human beings don't do that when you hit them, so unless you've got it in for the Michelin Man...
  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    One critique, from an instruction perspective - "um" does not inspire confidence or aid clear instruction.

    This clip is from a comedy, but the merciless exercise can be great to get out of the habit, and you can practice it in your own head if you don't like the idea of others doing it :)

  12. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Actually, it makes them good training tools, because the way to minimize the rebound is to relax and flow through the target. The more you tense up, the worse the rebound tends to be.
  13. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Of course you have to be careful to not absorb the impact by letting the bottom fingers of the grip go lax and the weapon rock back in the hand. Seen that far too much when people are striking more solid objects.
  14. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Welcome to MAP.

    I also like tyre drills and Lonely Dog has some good ideas, which I'm sure you've seen.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RZe6ZZ92DM"]LD's Workout - 29 Tire & Abs - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx4CDgnEhkI"]LD's Workout 1 - Hitting the Tire - YouTube[/ame]
  15. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Yeah, that's another good feature of the drill. The weapon retention.
  16. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    A sharp blade will cut to the bone with almost no effort. However, my understanding of sabre/cutlass is that it is the weight of the blade to break/bruise bones that makes them effective in close combat. The cutting isn't the only use of the weapon. I would say that the order is thrust (tip) as the primary use of the weapon, striking with the weight of the blade secondary, and then the cutting a close third. IMHO.
  17. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    It's not really one or the other. Thrusting is good, cutting is good, weapon characteristics allowing of course.

    The mass and balance of the blade allow you to cleave effectively. Cleaving is useful for the same reason a .45 calibre handgun is useful, stopping power; that and the natural human tendency to swing a sword like a club. But if you have a falchion and I have a nimble infantry sabre and I can move quickly enough to hit you at will all that stopping power isn't really helpful. You have to be able to hit.

    Looking at the two extremes what you tend to find is that by and large forward weighted, tip heavy weapons like the falcata or falchion exist because they're useful against armour and shields. When you remove armour that level of cleaving power is excessive and hinders mobility more than anything and so you find a transition to more hilt balanced weapons which aren't so excessively forward weighted even when they're purely cutting weapons like certain types of sabre.

    Power against an unarmoured opponent has a limit where it becomes more cumbersome than useful.
  18. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Sure about that? Hit many people in the head with a stick lately? Depending on various factors in the moment it can rebound.

    What about when your strike is intercepted by the opponent's weapon? They can bounce then.

    Ap said-
    Also,dealing with rebound helps you learn to redirect the force into the next attack.As well as watch your head!
  19. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    No, but I have punched a lot of people in the head. Can't say my fist has ever bounced back.

    I have used wood and heavy bags, and never had a problem with rebounds.

    That I have done a lot of. If you have good structure and are striking through to hit your target (rather than your training partner's stick) then rebounding isn't an issue that I've ever had a problem with.

    Perhaps different materials manifest this more? I've never used rattan, only oak, pine, acacia, and ash (and perhaps some other trees that I forget...).
  20. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    The other thing to bear in mind are the three different energies or type of strikes.

    Sticking, bouncing (witik) and striking through.

    It's not always about striking through.

    Range is a factor too. Much harder at close range and this is where good mechanics come in.

    Elbow much closer to the body to enable striking with the end of the stick.

    It's no good having a training tool and just sticking to one range and one type of strike.

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