Tips on How Women Can Protect Themselves From Being Victims of Violent Crime

Discussion in 'Women's Self Defence' started by KickChick, Oct 21, 2005.

  1. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    No I said
    ie. Don't be forced or tricked into going into more danger. Fight as hard as you can and try to get away, call for help, shout fire perhaps, I have heard more people will respond to a cry of fire than a cry of rape or help.

    You mentioned bar fights PLURAL, what else am I to assume. If I was "started on for some reason" I would be able to use my verbal skills to defuse it 99% of the time, the other 1% we all have no choice in, you can not reason with the unresonable.

    No I was a steward, a bouncer sugests someone who is employed to stop trouble by being a bigger thug than the thugs he is stopping, I trained and practiced to stop trouble by not giving them the chance to start in the first place. Often walking up to a potential troublemaker, if by some chance he got in to the venue, and asking him if everything was allright was enough to defuse the situation. Your voice says concern but your eyes say you are aware of the potential in the situation.
    I was commenting on myself (use of the word I) not attacking Geoff Thompson, I have actualy read a lot of his books, he is one writer I have a lot of respect for, do you know he now abhors violence and is now a top writer and thinker in the field of personal development. He also mentions criminal act's he commited as he made his way through life, he conquered his inner demons and made himself a valuable and productive member of society, he is not a god but he is a good example of a human being.

    I do not have a beef with you, I have a difference of opinion on something with you, I am also trying to help, but I honestly think women reading this are more than capable of taking their own decisions so we are both pretty redundant. All I can offer is a little bit of advice based on my own experience. We are all on the same side here, your experiences are not mine and vice versa.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2005
  2. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher


    I'll lay things out as best as I can here. Playful Giant, it's obvious you have a very specific belief system. And that's been built up based on your experience and that's cool.

    But here's the thing. A number of us here have studied either directly under (or by proxy) under people like Geoff Thompson, Tony Blauer, and other luminaries in the field of practical self defense. So for example when I say you're point about "not making a sound because an attacker gets off on screaming" is bad advice, I'm not pulling from my rather limited personal experience with Women's Self Defense. I'm drawing from the work of Thompson and in particular Blauer.

    Going back to the example you gave, it's a statistical outlier when you look at all of the information that's been collected on criminal behavior. And any SD/Police person worth thier salt would tell you that. And the general rule of thumb is that you don't train specifically for outliers.

    There is no question that some people are taught poor self defense. And simply screaming and doing nothing else would be part of that. But making a lot of noise as part of a physical resistance is excellent and advocated by every self defense luminary that I know.

    - Matt
  3. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    Well since this is in response to me, let me plead my case here and comment on some other points you also brought up here.

    True, you cannot rely on others to hear you or offer help in passing.... but when an attacker says to you "don't scream or I'll kill you". He's telling you exactly what will ruin his plan. You MUST ruin his plan..... you MUST create a disturbance, scream, throw things, blow the horn.

    As you say you cannot rely on others coming to your aid, but you MUST make all the noise that you can muster to appeal to his fear of getting caught and to make him think twice that someone just mayhear you and intervene.

    An attacker's worst fear is getting caught!

    A bar room brawl ... man against man is entirely different that a violent crime against a woman. I am surprised that you can come here and equate the two.

    It’s always easier to STAY out of trouble than to GET out of trouble.
  4. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    or hurt...

    Well stated!

    - Matt
  5. Playful Giant

    Playful Giant Banned Banned

    I am in complete agreement with you. But most of the time, they are looking for a thrill, to scare you. I was saying that if they come up without such a request and you scream or beg, you are giving them what they want. Similarly, for Matt bernius and 'adouglasmhor' you are doing the sma ething when you try and reason with people. Hang out in Clapham, South Norwood, Brixton or other such places and try and reason. You won't come out alive

    No its not. There are many women out there who are just as strong as men if not stronger. Men will grapple with them even hit them. I admit that women are more likely than men to be grabbed than hit but the fighting aspect remains

    I don't agree. Unless you live your life at home!! Even the most passive of people can get into fights. Does it make them thugs? No. Just unlucky.

    For Matt Bernius - I have a wide scope of self defence experience. Shouting and screaming (as my sensei taught me), led me to more trouble. I find that whispering to an attacker that you are going to hurt them usually puts them off. I was putting my point across that shouting rarely works. I am glad that this topic is not all one way (otherwise it would be boring) and it gives different opinions to women.
  6. hux

    hux ya, whatever.


  7. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    Yeah, I bow to your experience, Belize, Northern Ireland, Possil, The Gorbals, Paisley, Shawlands, Springburn,Glasgow City centre, they are all wimps compared to Clapham and Brixton. I could reason with people because they knew that it was easier and with less physical cost than stepping it up. You may get it one day, I hope you do. That is what I mean by Stewarding not Bouncing.
    Where I live in a relatively rough working class area of Glasgow Springburn Stats
    I was working on doors in rough areas before you were born and if I knew then what I knew now I know I would have had even less physical fights. Your mind is the greatest weapon - everything else is just accessories.

    Maybe it would be better if a mod split this bit from the thread on womens defence tips as it is contributing nothing to the subject under discussion. You seem to be unable to see past your own experiences and you are under the impression someone will be impressed by them.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2005
  8. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    He just doesn't get it!

    "Even the phrase 'women's self-defense,' implies that it is, in essence, somehow different from men's self-defense."

    The fact is, it IS different. Men attack another man differently than they attack women. To paraphrase Tony Blauer, a man just has to defend his property or his life. A woman has to defend her property, her life AND her body.

    You have a plan of action that works for you as a man.... fine I am not about to get into a heavy debate over your techniques and strategies here.

    You keep bringing up "fights". Men do not pick fights with women at bars. Male attackers stalk women with one intent only whether it be sexual or a domestic dispute..... so you mention a woman staying behind closed doors at home doesn't need to defend herself? ..... ever hear of domestic abuse? home invasion?

    A male attacker picks a "good" victim and attacks in a place or manner where there is privacy, the threat of force may be enough to get the woman to comply without using force.

    So in reality.... you certainly do have control over denying the attacker the opportunity and then making yourself a "bad" target with a simple awareness and some common sense.
  9. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Sigh. At the moment, I don't have the opportunity to go to those places. However, feel free to visit parts of Chicago, NYC and even Rochester where I've had to spend time. Suprisingly I've managed to live in supposedly terrible neighborhoods and go out to bar and clubs, and have only gotten into one fight in my entire life.

    As far as the idea that talking a person down is somehow giving in to what they want... fine with me. Or that people want to hear you scream... jeez at least where I'm from it's usually more about getting a wallet.

    Ok. let me put it another way that will finish my point. Based on the sum total of your posts, while you might have loads of self defense experience, I think your advice is just not that good and that you make jumps in logic that just aren't accurate or logical. The fact that you continue on the bar room brawl=woman's self defense demonstrates this.

    I base this on my own personal self defense experience, that of my teachers, those of individuals in both the law enforcement and the self defense field. The fact that many others on this forum seem too agree with me only furthers my resolve that while what you advocate *might work quite well for you,* it isn't what I'd teach to people asking for self defense tips. Staying calm is one approach, but it's pretty difficult for some folks to do in the midst of an adrenal rush. As KC suggested, I want anyone I instruct (or myself for that matter) to do what ever it takes to unbalance their attacker and get home safe.

    If that makes me a poor teacher in your mind, I can handle that. However, has it occured to you that since everyone is questioning what you post (bringing previous experience, examples, and documentation with us), that maybe, just maybe, you need to reexamine the way that your communicating your ideas because they're just not getting across the way you want them to?

    - Matt
  10. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    There is a body of evidence that shows predatory criminals are expert at picking victims, they pick the same people over and over again and in one study shown photos criminals all picked the same people as victims and the same people as a big no no.

    You hear of women who have serial consecutive abusive relationships. This is because another type of predator is drawn to target them not because they make bad choices.
    KickChick is right on the money with what she picks here. My only experiences which may have some bearing come when I was the victim of an adult male abuser as a young boy. I shouted pushed him away and he ran, this happened in a museum in Glasgow and staff were there within seconds. Maybe if I had followed the stay silent approach I would have been raped in a quiet corner or abused in the toilets. I did not have the ability at 11 to fight off a grown man. I still remember what he was wearing over 30 years later but I can't remember his face.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2005
  11. Playful Giant

    Playful Giant Banned Banned

    Are you crazy? A man doesn't have to protect his body? My friend had his testi*les set on fire by a gang of blokes. Majoratively the reason behind the attacks are different for men and women, but the physical attacks are ften the same. I have seen men grabbed and restrained the same way as women.

    That is why I hate the phrase 'women's self defence'. They want equality and now they are saying that they are different!!

    So are you saying that domestic abuse is the same as being attacked in the street?

    I agree completely that women do stalk women for sex whereas its rare that guys are stalked for the same reason.

    And by the way, women do pick fights with guys in bars. Go to Portsmouth on a Saturday night!

    I still disagree. If a man wants to attack a woman, he will!! Albeit, they may try for privacy, but if he doesn't get it he will get her anyway.

    I remember seeing some news footage about Central Park where a couple of women were attacked by gangs of guys. They stripped them down and attacked them.

    Matt Bernius-'If that makes me a poor teacher in your mind, I can handle that. However, has it occured to you that since everyone is questioning what you post (bringing previous experience, examples, and documentation with us), that maybe, just maybe, you need to reexamine the way that your communicating your ideas because they're just not getting across the way you want them to?'

    I never said you were a bad teacher and my apologies if this has come across in the forum. You are obviously a good teacher as not many people have argued. However, this is something that is close to my heart as many people have the wrong idea about self defence. Every single one of the girls who came back from their recent training course asked me to 'grab them on the wrists here, no here, no wait a minute not that hard, thats it then oh it doesn't work'. It frustrates me as I have seen this time and time again.
    Attackers will not desist by just saying 'go away' or shouting. The girls in my class know that what we teach them works in any given situation. There is no 'grab here'. No matter how they attacked, they deal with the situation

    For my friend adouglasmhor, I was givingsome local examples of rough places. I could have listed Harlem, Berlin, LA, to name a few. What I meant was that there are tough towns out there, Glasgow being one. You disproved your own point - you don't get attacked because everyone knows you!! Fights happen to random people. Some are preyed upon (previously stated), others are normal guys and gals out for a pint who have just got unlucky
  12. hux

    hux ya, whatever.

    That statement explains a lot.


    I guess all any of us are saying is that the entire law enforcement community disagrees with your assertion that a woman should stay silent during an attack. You might want to consider the possibility that you are mistaken.
  13. Playful Giant

    Playful Giant Banned Banned

    To reiterate, the law enforcement's advice is based on an ideal that if a woman screams, she will get help. This is flawed. Ten years ago, maybe.

    The police do not women going around taking the law into their own hands. It has a strict code to abide by. We were told at our self defence training day that we should never touch our opponent, or risk being taken to court!

    Elbows, eye strikes, punches, kicks are all too aggressive to be taught as self defence accoriding to the police. I have sent several requests for the police to be brought up to speed with real fighting. They will not do so.

    I am very open on the issue of women crying out. If a woman wants to do this then she is welcome. I would just say that when no-one comes running...
    If I am wrong, I am wrong. I was merely advising that women (and men) do not bow to the aggressors wishes. If a woman knows karate then she will be as vocal as she needs to be. I would just say that I have found this does nothing.

    There are indeed martial arts out there that are meant to knock people out, even kill a person with the sound of their voice!! This is one extreme, but like I've said I'm open
  14. hux

    hux ya, whatever.

    no, you are absolutely wrong. This advice is based on the fact that a woman's best chance for escape is to get the attacker to stop the attack, and one way to do that is to vocalize/project strength during the attack. Around here we train to make eye contact and strike to the groin if possible and yell loudly "NO! NO! NO!" among other things.

    None of which involve whispering into anybody's ear that you're going to hurt them. You're living in a fantasy world with that, and hopefully nobody reads that and takes it to heart here.

    :bang: :bang: :bang:

    It has very, very little to do with any hope of anyone "coming running". It has much more to do with helping the attacker decide that his efforts would be better applied to a more compliant target. It's not screaming like a helpless girl, brudda.

    I'll comment on this later if I can stop laughing long enough.
  15. Playful Giant

    Playful Giant Banned Banned

    I give up... I feel like the lone soldier - 'Sarge, all the other soldiers are out of step, I'm the only one marching to the beat'. I was trying to express the views that the times I have been attacked, screaming/shouting does not work. For an honest opinion, I was insulted by members of this website. Personally I feel disgusted that people can't have an honest debate on here. I will no longer comment on this subject.

    That was exactly my reaction when I heard it. It was on Mind, Body and Kick Ass Moves.
  16. hux

    hux ya, whatever.

    No, you were insulted for arrogantly deciding that your limited experiences qualify you to declare years of research by people in the field invalid. Not people who've bumped into a bad guy or two on their way home, mind you - people who've devoted their lives to analyzing actual events, interviewed criminal after criminal, victim after victim, and assimilated an action list to prevent an attack. Coming on here and declaring the things you did is an insult to them and their work and you can count on me to stand up and point if it happens again. You haven't been attacked, I think we've all been quite restrained in our responses.

    Nothing wrong with having an honest opinion - I have an honest opinion that the earth is flat, doesn't mean I'm right.

    Shrug, I didn't ask for a reference. It's still bogus.
  17. Playful Giant

    Playful Giant Banned Banned

    As I said before, the Metropolitan Police have flawed methods of dealing with attackers. If that's what years of research gives you then, I'm sorry but it's money badly spent.

    A couple of women returned from these so called defence seminars and asked me to grab their wrists, neck etc. They couldn't escape out of it. To my mind, its dangerous teaching females bad moves like that.

    My experiences are not limited either, thankyou. I have been attacked (mugged, robbed) about 25 times in my life time. I find that I get started on in bars and pubs that I go to (yes some of them are rough, some of them aren't). I agree that there are people with more knowledge than me. If what they say works, I will listen to them. I won't follow an opinion like a good little sheep just because someone is a black belt from a McDojo. You could have trained 40 years and be cr*p. You could have trained 12 months and be an outstanding fighter.

    I agree with you. The point I was trying to make is that I didn't make it up and that is an extreme version of your argument about women shouting.
  18. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    OK ... here is one "law enforcement" site (one out of many on the net) regarding their advice on self defense & the advice regarding "screaming"

    Also the National Crime Prevention Council also advocates screaming or yelling to draw attention to the pursuer.

    "In fact, the most often used strategy for avoiders (of rape) appears to have been a combination of screaming and use of physical resistance." (Bart, P. & O'Brien, P. (1985)

    "On the street, to instill the fear of being caught, you can use loud,
    attention-getting devices like screaming, a police whistle or a personal
    I also like screaming as your personal alarm. It is always with you, never
    runs out of batteries, and cannot give off a false alarm. Plus, the price
    is definitely right.
    Used together, a personal alarm and your screams make a great
    attention-getting team. (Brad Parker/"

    Just remember women.... the law rarely denies your right to use lethal force in defense of your life!!!
  19. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    To clarify most of our points, screaming (the production of loud noises) in conjunction with physical resistance is the best strategy for self defense (for both men and women). Again, none of us are advocating just screaming. But producing a ruckus, while defending yourself is an excellent strategy backed by countless research and experts.

    Great ref's KickChick.

    - Matt
  20. Melanie

    Melanie Bend the rules somewhat.. Supporter

    Just my hapennys worth peeps.

    I have been attacked twice - once in a nightclub and once at work. Both completely unexpected. I wasn't drunk either I hasten to add.

    I can't imagine being attacked or mugged so many times as Playful Giant and I strongly recommend you take a look at your prioritys and amend them. To go through life being constantly attacked isn't healthy. I assume you have family and friends? How do they feel when they hear about your "exploits"? Are they happy you place yourself in so much danger? Much of self defence is awareness and being responsible enough not to place yourself in danger in the first place...but to continually do it you can't be listening to the lessons all that day your family will sadly have to identify you. You must listen to these are obviously someone who seems to attract a bad element. I don't know you or your personal life but think of your family and friends. Place yourself in their shoes when they have to make the choice on who identifies the body.

    Those two ocassions I have personally been in trouble...

    In the nightclub I was cornered by a very drunk and randy man. It was dark, extremely noisy and I was literally pulled away from the crowd to a darkened corner. I didn't have any confidence and no martial arts experience at the time. I attempted to scratch at first as I couldn't release my arms - but that made no difference...he felt no pain (due to the alcohol). So I screamed and screamed "Help me", "Stop, please stop" and finally I was heard over the din and he was rapidly prised off me by two large hairy bouncers and "bounced" out of the club. I was given medical attention at the club and escorted to my car by the bouncers. I worked.

    The second time at work. I was working with adults with learning difficulties and mental health issues. Some can get violent and they know what they are doing, some don't 'cos of the meds they are on. This one got angry...not at me but directed it at me. This time I did have MA experience...but obviously couldn't use it. MA taught me to block and move away from an attack so I did that and then pinned them on the floor. I couldn't retaliate and I couldn't release my hands to get to my mobile to call anyone either. So I shouted. It came.

    I once did MMA about 2-3 years ago - I attended a meet-up where I have the opportunity to fight some one on the floor in a clinch. I have no MMA training and did dirty tricks quitely honestly and won (twice :D ). If I was being attacked I wouldn't care where I was hitting or hurting. The old adage "I would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six" is my motto. There is no such thing as excessive force if you feel your welfare is in doubt whether in the street, in a club...or even in your own home. But thats just my opinion :)

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