Tips on How Women Can Protect Themselves From Being Victims of Violent Crime

Discussion in 'Women's Self Defence' started by KickChick, Oct 21, 2005.

  1. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    I find that really hard to believe, any chance you can link to some published statistics on that? What types of knives? Folders? Fixed blade?

    And as far as stabbing one's self in producing the knife, where did he have it stored? And if anything that speaks to the need (though hopefully not for the bad guys) of knowing how to use the weapon.

    - Matt
     
  2. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    There seem to be two things at work here. One is "criminals taking the knives away from the victims". The other is "defenders cutting themselves with their own knives".

    While these may seem to be the same thing, they really aren't.

    If you've ever stabbed something with a knife you will be convinced that a strong grip and a good knife design are essential to keeping you from cutting your own hand. The reason knives designed for conflict have guards isn't to block other people's knives. It's to keep your hand from sliding onto the blade. A typical steak knife, old-style pocket knife or medium kitchen knife is probably the most common sort of blade used as a field-expedient weapon. None of these has anything to prevent the hand from sliding or the grip from turning when it's slippery with sweat or blood.

    When I worked in the emergency room we had this sort of thing happen every once in a while. A long talk with a trauma surgeon from Bellvue Hospital in New York (one of the world's best when it comes to bullet and knife wounds) confirmed my guess. She says the most common defensive wound by far is the slice to the inside of the palm from stabbing and either not holding on tight enough or using one of the previously-mentioned tools.

    Taking a knife away from someone is a whole other matter. The research that's been done on victim response in the US is pretty unequivocal. Unless the attacker has a gun a knife is almost never taken away from the defender and used against him or her.

    I daresay there's something else at work here - underreporting. A defender who cuts him or herself is likely to show up in the ER and tell the police what happened. A criminal who is cut or stabbed isn't likely to. If he shows up it will be with some more-or-less-plausible story. Fill in the rest. It all follows logically.

    As to the insanity of allowing people to carry pocket knives, well, insanity has a lot to do with results. Britons aren't allowed to carry knives, but they cut and stab each other somewhat more often than Americans do. Canada is much more liberal about carrying knives than either the US or the UK. They don't seem to stick each other very much. The reason is almost certainly that normally law abiding people don't suddenly turn into monsters due to the evil talismanic power of The Blade. The knife sits in the pocket and gets used on oranges and cardboard boxes.

    The people you have to worry about, the murderers, rapists, thieves and psychos, are going to carry something anyway. And they won't cut themselves as often because they are more likely to plan what tool they'll use for the job.

    It brings something interesting to mind. When I was a kid rural kids who drove to school had gun racks in their pickups. During hunting season these would often as not be filled. I saw a fight between one of the rednecks and one of the city types. The country guy was getting the worst of it and ran to his truck. He didn't get his rifle. He dug out his baseball bat. A bat was a weapon for schoolyard fights. He thought of a rifle as "something to hunt deer with".
     
  3. Playful Giant

    Playful Giant Banned Banned

    I do not know how to publish excel folders on here. I am sure I would be allowed to (without putting my job at risk) due to the Freedom of Information Act. Stats are not always a hundred per cent accurate. What you have to remember is that the attacker, mugger or fighter does not necessarily have to be a master of weapons to carry one!! It is a 'scare tool'. Some people freeze up/comply with the muggers demands, whilst others go for it and fight back. In these fights, it is almost 50/50 as to who gets cut

    I did Kyokishinki Karate for seven years and their teaching of knife defence wasn't great. It was teaching you to grab the knife and try and lock that person up. Please note, I am not having a pop at all karate defence out there, just this particular school. It was a shame, because all of the other stuff was realistic and worked every time.

    Grabbing the knife hand usually leaves the attacker with a free hand to attack back with. Plus, if he is twice the size of you, he will merely throw you off!!

    Where did he produce the knife from? Pocket? Shoe? Jacket? Who knows. Police in the UK don't usually contain that much detail in their report. We might know a person has a favourite place of carrying weapons if he is known to carry them, but if it is a one off attack - who knows...
     
  4. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    Carry a knife? Where I'm at now the government confiscates any types of weapons. I had to get a permit for a lightweight bo.
     
  5. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    You're not a woman either Kwaj,

    Please let us concentrate solely on protection for women.... this is the "Womens" Self Defense forum.

    Attackers carrying knives, stab or cut their victims about 20 percent of the time. As noted in The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Self-Defense by Chris Harris, those odds are pretty good.

    Please note: In the U.S., you are able to receive a license to carry a concealed weapon for lawful self-defense. Review the laws of your state regarding this

    OK ... so then what are the tips you guys have for women to defend themselves against a knife wielding assailant?
     
  6. Developing

    Developing Valued Member

    My suggestion would be to have something that can be used as a means to keep some distance between the attacker and themselves. I'm sure there are other things but upon reading the various posts this is the first thing that came to mind. Mace or some other form of liquid that can upon reflex be directed towards an assailant's eyes may cause a momentary delay for the woman to create distance and escape. This is by no means an infallible solution but it is an option.
     
  7. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    Good suggestion!

    That is exactly what the show I based this thread on recommended. Anything you can use to keep assailant away and stall his plans.

    If that doesn't work, or you can't find an object to use, get under a car and use it for cover.

    Confronted with a knife...... RUN & SCREAM .....or even better, carry a small whistle which will carry farther and attract more attention.
     
  8. Playful Giant

    Playful Giant Banned Banned


    Eye strike. Everytime. He will either dodge or not. Either way it will give you time to leg it!!

    Never grab your opponent, especially the knife arm. Even if you control that arm, he still has one free!

    Never kick him (in the balls). If you miss, you're over comitted and will set you up for the stab

    Try not to panic! Don't cry or shout. Some attackers get off on this and is sometimes the reason why they do it in the first place. The silent opponent is the one to fear...
     
  9. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    I have to disagree with this..... There is absolutely no way I am going to remain silent and I don't advise any woman to do so either!
     
  10. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Don't worry about what might make the attacker sexually aroused. Worry about what will make him fall down and not be able to get back up again.
     
  11. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Exactly. Anything that can be done to disrupt and spook the attacked it critical.

    The important thing to remember is that there are two things that no "sane" attacker wants:

    1. To be caught
    2. To be hurt

    - Matt
     
  12. lanista

    lanista New Member

    As you are a person that works for the police and has instructed them in various techniques, I find this last advice quite you give out of context for what the Met and other constabularies advise.

    In giving advice to women on personal safety, any constabulary advocates personal alarms and drawing attention to herself in an attack sitiuation. Sapphire says "Always carry shriek alarm," for instance.

    As you are martial artist of some 20 years experience and an instructor of our police in martial techniques, I would like to ask how you rationalise this last piece of advice, when it clearly goes against every standard the various constabularies lay out as good pracitce.

    Regards

    L
     
  13. hux

    hux ya, whatever.

    you bet. Body language, in my opinion and a lot of other people's, is the single most critical way of communicating with an attacker before you ever see him. The poster that said they "can sense" a victim was dead on. Given two women, one who is walking confidently and speaking loudly and another who has shoulders slumped and is scurrying along eyes down, the attacker is after the one saying "I will not cause you any problems".

    Nevermind the fact that the slumped shoulders woman might be an upteenth degree black belt in t3h d34dly, her body language says she's a target.

    So my tip would be - make sure your body language says "I will fight you like a hellcat because I believe in myself" when you are walking around.

    edit

    and yea, remaining silent is the last thing you want to do. We're not talking about ninja movies here.

    /edit
     
  14. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    A great exercise for anyone is to take an afternoon and put on an "attacker/preditor mindset." Go to a publis space and just watch people, thinking "if I had to attack someone, who would it be? [note: I realize that this seems sociopathic, but I think it is a useful drill]"

    From that one can begin to pick up ideas about how NOT to behave. As the previous poster suggested, how you hold your body alone can do wonders for keeping one safe.

    The important thing is to understand that there is no silver bullet. That you need to do everything you can to be your own bodyguard.

    - Matt
     
  15. Playful Giant

    Playful Giant Banned Banned

    That's your choice, but two years ago a Shotokhan Karate brown belt was attacked in the London area (those who live near Putney may have heard about it). Two of the guys managed to subdue the woman but were found and arrested. One had a history of mental illness but they asked them why they did it. They replied that it wasn't just the money but the thrill and empowerment that the attack gave them. Hearing her yell at them had only encouraged them.

    If I'm fighting someone in a bar, I never worry about the people making the noise, it is the deathly silent ones I try to deal with first.

    All that will happen if you shout will be to encourage your attacker to act (cover your mouth, knock you out, etc). We live in a sick world, and unfortunately if you shout, not many people will respond. I myself was attacked last year and despite my requests to civilians nearby to call the police after I had pinned the guys, they didn't do anything. I know I'm a guy and it's a little different, but the result is the same. You get girls screaming and shouting every night where I live and most of it is them messing around (being tickled by their mates, etc).

    I despise the bad self defence that is taught to women in a lot of 'self help groups'. The mentality that 'kicking a person in the balls' will work every time just gives women false hope. I know for women it's nice to have that confidence, but they will come unstuck when they get attacked. My advice is to join a proper martial arts group (wing chun, ninjitsu, tai-boxing, karate, etc), but avoid the sport based arts (kickboxing, boxing, etc). The sport based arts are great fun to do (I do them myself), but are more for fitness and as a spar rather than as a gritty self defence. If you get grabbed (as most women do in attacks), then boxing will be no good.
     
  16. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    That's one isolated case, I would recomend make as much noise as possible and don't go where the bad guy wants you to go.

    I was asked for help in Amsterdam a couple of years ago by an Australian man who was being intimidated (into handing over money)by another Aussie, Me and some Afro-caribean guys went to his aid and the robber bogged out sharpish.

    Anyway I don't think someone who gets into bar fights is who I would ask for advice about SD.
     
  17. Playful Giant

    Playful Giant Banned Banned


    Let's put it this way. Every question I asked the police representative in martial arts he couldn't answer. The police find it difficult to promote techniques like eye strikes and elbows as they go against the rule of 'with equal force'. We were taught basic defence techniques that didn't work. It's almost as though someone has sat down in an office somewhere and dreamt up moves that might work in a defence situation.

    You will find that most people who cry out for help do not get it. There was a fight the other day bewteen a man and woman in the high street where I live. It got physical but no one would help, including me, because it was unclear as to who was the aggressor!!

    Our 'stiff upper lip' culture means that most people turn a blind eye when someone is in trouble. I always try and get involved when I can and I'm pleased to say that there are still some 'Knights of the old code' out there.

    Unfortunately, you will be hard pressed to find people putting themselves at risk for strangers.
     
  18. Playful Giant

    Playful Giant Banned Banned

    Where does the bad guy want you to go? Does this mean that women are not allowed to go where they want?

    And why not? Just for info - I never start the trouble, but the pubs that I go sometimes attracts the wrong crowds. I find your comments rude and I would argue that the people who have actually had a fight are the best people to ask advice for!! (Geoff Thompson for one!) If you prefer learning martial arts through a book then good for you, just don't come on here trying to know what you're talking about when real attacks are discussed
     
  19. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    The bad guy wants to get his victim to where he can do his crimes in peace and free from disturbance. So you recomend that a woman lets an attacker put her iin his car, drag her up an alley, or push her into an empty house?


    You are going into the wrong pubs then; again you strike me as an unsuitable person to be giving advice about SD. I have had a couple of fights that were unavoidable, due to my job - Stewarding (15 years experience, I was looked on as a top steward by many people in the licenced trade) or being attacked by criminals during my time in the forces sometimes when off duty. Geoff Thompson would probably agree with what I said, but maybe not, unlike you I don't have enough self-importance to presume to speak for him. I don't actually do enough reading on MA (I have only read one of Hatsumi's books for instance), I guess going to the gym, the Dojo and pursuing a career and a family life eat into my reading time. You have made a lot of assumptions about me but I am judging you by what you posted. And I do know what I am talking about, I am not some rude blowhard who goes into defensive mode when someone uses logic and analisys to counter their arguments.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2005
  20. Playful Giant

    Playful Giant Banned Banned

    No, but how could a woman avoid these!!! You said that a woman should avoid these areas. There is a difference between going to an area (which was the point you were trying to make) and being forced into an area!


    You assumed that I go into pubs and start brawls! I would mention that these are family bars where I have been defending someone who couldn't defend themselves or I have been started on for no reason

    Do you mean you were a bouncer?

    What do you mean, self importance? Geoff Thompson is not god!! Does that mean that all the MAP members who have mentioned his name are self important? I was merely quoting that he had been in quite a few fights - that does not make him a lout or not unsuitable to give SD advice!!

    Whatever your beef with me, I am trying to help the women out there as I sympathise greatly with the female of the species who do get attacked
     

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