This is the same question I posted on another forum... forgive the cross-posting, but I figured folk round here might have some ideas too... Just had someone start who's no taller than 5', whose forearm is less than my handspan and whose wrist is about the same as three of my fingers. Normally I start students on SLT, punching mitts (there are no walls in Japan robust enough to put wall bags on!) and the heavy bag, and breaking down each move from SLT into a two person drill and a bag drill. Lots of repetition, then, by the time they're up to the second section of SLT if it's going smoothly I get them on turning drills and stepping drills etc. This woman asked me if she could do wing chun and it would be useful for SD... There is no realistic way I could expect her to do a full speed and strength standing pak sao drill for eg without turning or stepping (of course I don't recommend doing pak or any other strike/deflection without putting your hips into it anyway, but as a drill to get the basics of working out how the impact relates to your stance...). Any tips please gentlemen (ladies? I remember there used to be some round here!)?
Honestly, I wish that there was more that I could tell you. I'm not an instructor, so I don't have to think about this stuff too much. One thing I've picked up from my instructor is levels, and how they change when you are doing different things. My instructor is much taller than me, so practicing him can be akward. An attack that would strike anyone elses head, will only hit him in the chest. I have to make range adjustments to him high, so the angles end up being different. The main tip I would offer is to be mindful about levels when you are practicing with her. Make sure you give her the right input. If you are doing a pak sao drill with her, you may need to drastically reduce your levels so that she can practice the hand properly.
I've had a few students that were of small stature. Comunicate with them and their drill partner, through this, "communication" have the taller partner work slower and lighter until the smaller student can adapt. The smaller students that I am referring to from my school,..progressed better that I thought they would. Obviously in full range or grappling the smaller student may have deficits, this is obvious, however, if they are realistic in their goals they will see progress and not disappointment if they set their goals too high! Kew-Do
As a short guy (I'm only 5'3")... A. Be mindful of the level issue. I'm no expert on WC, but I can say that it shouldn't hurt anyone to bring things down to her level. One of the senior students should be able to accomplish that with a deep stance perhaps? It's going to be the job of the instructor to change things around until the student gets to a level where she has attained some comfort with the material. It makes things harder for you, but in the end it will be better for all of you, I suspect. B. "Make her work". If she is especially interested in self-defense, it's not a bad idea for her to occassionally struggle to work the techniques because, let's face it, there is a better than average chance anyone who attacks her in real life will be (significantly) taller than she is. But that'll come later.
Just because she's little doesnt necessarily mean that she wont be able to do your regular drills, just that people will have to take account of the fact that it takes a lot less to send her flying across the room! I do think its important to take account of the difference in size while training as well, not in a 'she's made of china' kinda of way, but just the fact that some techniques may not realistically work when there's that degree of size difference. I have found it frustrating sometimes trying to explain to a training partner twice the size of me that I cant reach that high or dont have the leverage to pull off that technique without some modification. Just because it works for a 5'10" guy against a 6'2" guy doesnt mean that it doesnt need adjusting a bit for a 12" height difference, and it is frustrating when people say you're 'being negative' when you cant get the thing to work exactly as they do. I think GC is right about it being advantageous for her to train with people bigger than her, especially if most people you meet are bigger than you! But one of the down sides of that is feeling like the whole thing is a waste of time for your partner, and you end up feeling like the nerdy kid that no-one wants to pick for the hockey team!
I'm about the tallest in class so you'll often see me in a deeper-than-standard stance so the shorter newb doesn't have to work uphill before they've got the line and power sorted. When training alone, your form is correct when the person you imagine on the receiving end of your techniques is the same height as yourself. edit: Once you know what's what, you can successfully start tailoring the system to your own proportions, making the style your own. Rgds, David
She'll get over that in time. She's there to learn, the other students are there to learn, and the instructors are there to teach. I've never felt as though I'm wasting anyone's time. And I usually get picked first in class, but I am the 2nd highest ranking student at our particular kwoon. Seriously, if anyone thinks of making it feel as though she's a burden for being short, they need to go home.
MR punch, if you are a sifu please do not take this as disrespect. WHAT is the point for women to train, if they are not to train to fight against big men that might rape them. do you honestly think they are going to get raped by 3' tall midgets? WOMEN NEED TO LEARN DEFENSE AGAINST THE LARGER TALLER OPPOSITE SEX THAT IS WHY WING CHUN WAS INVENTED!!! there are over 50 different options that she could try other then a pak sao. However, this lineage wing chun... was invented for women 4'9-5'3 since this was the hieght of the average southern chinese probably during this time... so toughen up and learn to adapt! wing chun... is not powerfuly only because of speed and streangth. it is powerful because of your brain and body alignment. my fiance woops my BUTT because she is 5'1 and does low level wing chun. she has about 3 months training and i have a year or two in SLT... she has the hight advantage! first... she can attack the heck out of my belly... where i can only reach her head by hands... and feet by legs (belly is hard to hit since her guard hands are so efficient from the shortness)... so... what could she do? adapt... 1. first of all... is someone really going to bend down to their level and then do a straight punch? probably not... why would her emphasis be on pak sao then? -she would need to do a different application (guam sao?)... with a stance turn... or learn to pak sao but if its at head level she might do something else. basically both of you need to adapt! tall vs short is not the same style fighting ... you could use bill sao and biuo? sao ... try out what works! basically a tall person is not really straight punching... they are literally hammer punching or hook punching forward to a short person.... so maybe have her block against this type of punch when the face punch happens... so don't think pak sao.. think something else that defends the head/face... when stuff comes to her belly have her use her guard hands (wuen) or guam sao and turn.. (sorry for misspellings) lastly if guys are to tall... tell them to pretend they are hitting from waste level to another guys chest.... practice this against guy vs guy... (chest chain punches)... thats about 1ft lower then 6 feet... now you replace the guy with the girl.. and tell them to do the same exact punch... (imagine a guys chest is there)... this will let her pak sao
well my sifu is my height which is 6ft and we have another couple of students who are around 6.2 - 6.3 when i train with them they adjust or i try to adjust upwards and the other guys are probably 5.5 maybe slighty shorted when i train with them, i widen my stance to make it more even. I can't see any issue here people need to be able to adjust that's what it's all about if you ask me.
Teach her proper distancing and how to move around her opponents. Panther mindset. I'm not sure if you can incorporate that into Wing Chun but that is what I use as far as CLF goes, and I am a small dude being 5'4" or 5'5" I can't remember.
Lol Some good general points and thank you everyone, but perhaps I should have been more specific. Let me clarify - I'm not worried about this: I'm perfectly sure I can do as good a job of teaching her as I do anyone. I was asking for specific drills that maybe chunners have worked out or particular insight they (or others) have for teaching small people. GC, NBD and David have been closest to the mark and most helpful so far. This is not what I was looking for: Nobody's given me a title, and I don't give a monkeys about such, but I've been training for ten years, and am still working on biu gee's apps, and I'm the only person around to teach these people. So it's more by default than by choice. I've taught the basics countless times, and was an aikido teacher and assistant teacher in the UK in another life. I don't take your post as direspect and I hope you don't take mine as so either, but I just wanted to address it because it's odd, but it seems like a lot of people think it's what I was after. Apart from the fact that the 'invention' of wing chun is shrouded in legend (ToS prevent me from putting this any more prosaicly!), why are you asking me such questions? Did I ask why this small woman wants to train? Did I give any hint as to lacking confidence or the skill to train her? As I am pretty much the shortest man in my group (at 6'1") do you not think I realize that most people are taller than her? I don't get your point. I was asking if you had any tips for training her. Sorry, I know you're American so the 'for eg' might have been lost on you - '(for) eg' in English means the same as '(for) ex' in American English. It's an example. I am aware there are other hand positions in wing chun. Thank you, I hadn't seen any height data for Chinese people in that region at that time. I assume you can tell me that bad guys around there and then were always considerably taller too? Thank you. I know. Did you have any tips for specific training exercises for shorter people? OK that's more like it, some anecdotal chat about training with a short woman... And yes, in my MMA class I've been schooled in the advantages short people can sometimes have in full contact situations. That's what I was after! I know several ways she could adapt when she is proficient enough and I have mentioned one way I will help her to train (turning drills and footwork from the get-go, though it doesn't usually take me long to introduce footwork drills anyway). I never suggested they would bend down. And I never put any emphasis on pak sao. You seem obsessed with pak sao! So, you are suggesting two-person drills where the big person is throwing anything basically, and she is defending with what she has been taught so far, and that I should teach her biu sao from the start? Why should they pretend they are hitting another guy's chest? They should just hit a short woman's head, no? LOL Thanks for the time and the input guys but a little too much moral support and theory and not enough practical advice!
I would recommend starting the drills in the basic stance and adding to it from there. For example, as it relates to pak sao specifically - 1. in yee gee stance, work on deflecting with pak sao, and then pak sao/punching simultaneously. also introduce double pak sao. no shifting yet. 2. after that's clean, work on the same drill from a forward fighting stance 3. go back to the drill in yee gee stance, this time introducing the double pak sao with shifting and returning with a single shifting punch. It's "step" 3 which I find best for teaching students of any size how stance relates to deflections/attacks. The Chum Kiu drills are also effective for this purpose. However, though I've had a number of difficulties in my training, I've never noticed a problem with doing pak sao without shifting. In my experience the most crucial factor has been timing.
hey i get bored at work lol... i think i was worried that you would give up on your student... so i wrote so much so you wouldn't give up hehe.
