time for wing chun black belt

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by gornex, Mar 31, 2006.

  1. someotherguy

    someotherguy Valued Member

    Are jeans and a t-shirt old fashioned? I train in my normal clothes...and unfortunately I don't wear elasticated trousers. Plus I can use my belt to slide down zip-wires while I make my escape from triad warriors. I'd only accept a belt from my teacher if it was one of those James Bond belts which had a poison dart in the buckle and could be used as a hang-glider
     
  2. Taff

    Taff The Inevitable Hulk

    Apparently, retaining the gi makes BJJ more technical and long-lasting. It also slows you down, and makes movement more difficult. Evens the score between a big guy and a little guy somewhat too.
     
  3. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Pak Mei is probably another seriously traditional, small martial art. That's the way to do it, in my opinion.
     
  4. Gert-Jan

    Gert-Jan Valued Member

    Jeans and T-Shirts are fineby me. I personally prefer sporting clothes to sweat in. I still do feel that black belt's or any other belt don't belong in our beloved Wing Chun. Even Yip Man and none of his students did were any belt.


    gi, BJJ ? Excuse me I thought we are talking about Wing Chun here. The topic says: "time for wing chun black belt". I am not looking for making my movements more difficult because of clothing, the movements are difficult enough to master without traditional clothes. We are training to fight aren't we?

    GJ. :cool:
     
  5. Bil Gee

    Bil Gee Thug

    There's two questions here, one to do with the merits of gradings, which is worth discussing, then there's the fashion issue but I have too much self respect to join in a debate on what the trendy look for wing chunners is this season.

    GJ I assume that you are dismissive of belts in that they represent a grading system rather than because you believe that elasticated waists are the only way forward? I can point out the advantages of having a structured syllabus with regular formal checks of your progress (as long as it's not too rigid) but as it's a concept that is intrinsic to our culture and touches on nearly all recognised training from medicine through to plumbing, I don't feel that I have to. Why do you think that gradings are a bad idea?
     
    Monkey_Magic likes this.
  6. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    But not football, tennis, boxing or chess. Which all probably have more in common with WC than plumbing ;)
     
  7. Gert-Jan

    Gert-Jan Valued Member

    Hey Biu Gee!

    Several reasons, many organisations have tried to restructure Wing Chun and only have simplified and degraded the value of the system. In teaching Wing Chun there must be a fair space of free choice when you train something with an individual or group. A time limit or written out plan isn't flexible enough. The plan is already there, the wheel doesn't need to be reinvented, start with siu nim tau and, dan chi etc . . . in the end pah cham dao. To devide into sections or belts also give the practitioner the idea, that he finished something and there are no beginners exercise or forms in Wing Chun. The perfection of forms etc. continues during our whole live.

    People who are motivated with extrinsical rewards are less motivated to the work itself. Without rewards it is the question if they stll would be training. Intrinsical motivated people develope into a stronger motivation and focus on progressing themselves and need nothing else except training.

    In most schools everybody gets their belt at a certain time anyway, otherwise people will leave the school and the school/teacher loose money. The belt system is a lot of times misused to bind people who actually wanted to stop training, the teacher then say for instance: 'A pity that you want to stop, you almost have the . . . belt.' Again maybe the sifu is thinking money here.

    The level of blackbelts or any other belt compared together from different schools en teachers, have no similarities or standart. One teacher give them away, another let people work for it. When somebody has received a belt and then later haven't trained for let's say 15 years, is it still a good idea to let him wear it? Or are there newcomers in the school, which haven't reached the bleackbelt, but are already better practitioners? This gives a wrong message.

    In one school you don’t need belts and exams. Everybody should really train with each other, without being to troubled who or what 'level' is in front of them. Within seconds you know if the person in front of you is better than you, maybe a little bit better or the same level or under your level.

    Sorry if my English isn't perfect, it's not my mother language. But you get the meaning I think. I don't think I am going to implement the balckbelt or exam system into my school. :)

    Cheers,


    GJ. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2006
  8. Seb Spiers

    Seb Spiers Valued Member

    if you want a belt go to JJB Sports and buy one, theyre about £4.99.
     
  9. Bil Gee

    Bil Gee Thug

    Hi GJ,
    I appreciate the issues that you talk about, however, I don't believe that they automatically happen when a grading system is introduced. Where I train there is a well structered system, but I don't feel that the training has suffered from any of the potential pitfalls you mention.

    Sometimes we split up and train in groups approximating to grade (although it is always sifu who tells us which group to join and that is based on skills). Often we all train together and although we tend to train the techniques at the level we're at, there's plenty of variation and variety.


    I've never been told anything different. Although I've completed the SNT level, I'm still checked and corrected regularly on the form and the techniques, as are all the students.


    I don't agree, I'm very motivated to learn WC to the best of my ability. I work towards the gradings, but frankly a little piece of paper that says I've completed a grade is no more than a memento to me of the work that I've done. It certainly isn't enough to motivate the hard work that I do. Mastery of wing chun is the objective and always will be.

    This would be a bad thing, but it's certainly not something that I've experienced. To go into a grading you need to have put in the time and effort before you are approved to go for it. You need to be able to demonstrate that you are able to perform the techniques in class. It's only when this has been achieved that you are able to go for the gradings under the pressure of a formal test.

    I agree with this, although the standards are common across the schools in the organisation I train with. I've met a couple of people who claimed to have done WC at other schools for years, it was very clear that they weren't at the level they claimed almost immediately. Their previous gradings had no bearing on the level they were at in the class.

    Again I agree, it only takes a minute of Chi Sau (sometimes a few seconds) for me to work out somebodies level if it's below mine, and to a certain extent I can make a good guess if they are better than me, as to approximately where they should be.

    Your English is better than a lot of people who have it as their first language.

    I think there are positives to the grading system. For example

    during the couple of weeks in the runup to the gradings students will focus on a number of techniques. I think there's a risk without that formalisation that certain areas could be overlooked.

    I enjoy having a short term goal to work towards. I think that things that adds to enjoyment in any learning environment are generally a good idea.
     
  10. Gert-Jan

    Gert-Jan Valued Member

    Hey Biu Gee,

    You agree a lot of points with me, but anyway lets talk about the other parts. :)
    Good post Biu Gee, I agree with some of the points about that the gradings. For instance it might help you to be able to act under stress because you have to perform later in a formal test. But I feel that there is more negative points to gradings than positive.

    To motivate people without a grading system isn't something I do to take the easy road or out of lazyness, I have to work harder as trainer (which is good) to motivate them only for Wing Chun.

    It doesn'automatically happen, but the risk is there. Maybe you are lucky in your school.


    Don't split up groups to much based on skill. The best way is that everybody train with each other regardless of training time, skill, hight, weight . . . and belt. Don't train the 'techniques' from your level to much, bt train the basic's the mosts. The goal isn't advanced technique's but quality.


    Thanks!


    I know I have taken it compete out it's context. :D
    But I feel comfortable that I don't need anything else then training and progressing.


    Wing Chun has already overcome a long time, as I sayed before, the elder before us didn't need it so why should we?


    Have a nice day, I 'm going to train!

    GJ.
     
  11. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Well, I have to say I'm darn traditional and don't like belts. My teachers (MMA and SPM) don't use belts and do fine keeping up with everyone's progress. I just like it better that way. There is a set 3 year curriculum in my SPM class. We follow it, working on everything we have worked on up to that point at any given time.

    I don't have anything against it either. If a teacher/style feels it's necessary to keep track of his student's progress using belts, fine.
     
  12. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    I like this quote ;)

    The only real 'grade' I see necessary in MA, is your Instructors blessing when he thinks you are good enough to teach.
     
    querist likes this.
  13. someotherguy

    someotherguy Valued Member

    But in constraining the system as you do, by using Western formalisations and grading structures, do you not think something could also be lost/overlooked from the system? You wouldn't even realise that they are overlooked if this were the case, because you would never have been exposed to them.
     
  14. Bil Gee

    Bil Gee Thug

    The system isn't really constrained by the grading system though. At times all the students in the class may be practicing bui gee techniques, or SLT techniques, and it's only in the couple of weeks prior to the gradings that those who are plannning to grade focus on the specifics.

    I do see how a grading system could be very restrictive and detrimental to the training, however, it doesn't have to be that way. It's all down to the quality of the sifu and his teaching methods. A good sifu wouldn't allow the grading system to have a detrimental effect on training.
     
  15. Topher

    Topher allo!

    Once we get to Green 2 level (yellow, red, green, brown, black) so around 3 years you need to be invited for any further gradings. Anyones else's school do anything like this?

    We do the same thing. Any other time it's left to the instructor to teach what he feels in neccesarily.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2006
  16. SAG

    SAG New Member


    Hi. This question seems to come with lots of variance in terms of time in the system. In my system, SKK, it’s 3 to 5 years, depending on the student. Since Wing Chun’s curriculum is not quite as large, it may take less time. My Wing Chun Master says any hard working martial artist can achieve this in 3 or so years, but that depends on the student. I know, I hate that answer, too.

    Quite frankly, I’ve seen many arguments that suggest that too much focus on time in grade along with hidden curriculums is ultimately driven by the profit incentive, especially in the US, dressed up as martial virtue. Nonsense.

    In terms of all the talk about belts and those who argue that it’s somehow beneath the values appropriate to mastery in the system, I would say that they’re making a mistake of reasoning known as a false dichotomy.

    Simply by saying that a focus on belts means a practitioner is not focused on becoming a great martial artist implies both are not possible. It’s either one or the other. This is patently false in my view.

    Personally, I love belts because they are a mark of one’s dedication to a system and to their master and dojo. They’re also a source of great pride for having had the grit and sticktuiticeness to achieve in the martial arts. Belts also create a kind of brother/sisterhood among similarly ranked students—seen that many times. It’s great. There’s nothing wrong with belts. I’m a huge proponent.

    I mean, I cannot imagine someone attending a university for 4, 6, or 7 years and say that they do not care whether or not they receive their degree—or more strangely, look down on degrees as a distraction to true academic mastery. Not gonna happen.
     
  17. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    This is one hell of a thread necro.

    Those who are 6-7 years in would have already known the score about ability and belt systems.

    Everyone wants their style's equivalent of a black belt. All fighters want a Championship belt at some point.

    But the statement of "How long? Thats too long" just screams "I want status not ability".
     
  18. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    What does it matter if you're 23 or 53 when you get your black belt? Enjoy the journey there, don't be in such a rush.
     
  19. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Yeah, I'd rather roll like Roger Gracie as a purple belt then roll like I do know but with a black belt o.
     
  20. SAG

    SAG New Member


    Hi. This is true.

    I would propose another reason why someone might be interested in knowing how long to black belt: most systems are just getting super interesting at that level. Of course, you most likely do not know that until you’re there or pretty close to it; but, for me, I feel it’s actually a very natural curiosity for someone new to a system to wonder this.

    Getting back to the university analogy, most people want to know before they’re even accepted to a program of study how long it takes to get that degree. The same holds true for martial arts students. For me, the comparison of martial arts programs to that of a university is very useful and provides interesting insights.
     

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