"Tiger" Hook Swords - questions

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by KuKulzA, Nov 14, 2006.

  1. KuKulzA

    KuKulzA Taiwanese independence!

    [​IMG]

    anyone here use these?

    Now I have done a bit of research and actually looking at a real pair and I have made a few conclusions...

    1. these are very cool swords. You can slash and hook at medium range, stabb and chop at close and even swing one of the swords for long range...
    2. They are popular for very skilled fighters in movies and shows like in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon and Jet from Avatar the Last Airbender..
    3. they can be a bit impractical for real life... unless.... you carry it around with you all the time strapped to your back and battle-ready
    4. these swords take a lot of training a skill to use

    however I would like to know if my comnclusions are correct. Also, for those who practice it, how do you go about training with these weaponsH what sort of techniques are employed? How do you train and how is the training?

    Thanks guys
     
  2. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    The way I see it they have more in common with axes (1h.) than swords, but apart from that, I agree with your statement 1

    Allthough you might be right in your statement 2; I'd say that wether a coreographed actor makes the weapons look smart or not is IMHO completely irellevant on wether the weapons are good weapons or not. (Jackie Chan makes refridgerators look like cool MA-weapons; I still wouldn't recomend one as a self-defence weapon :p )

    Statement 3 is only partially correct IMHO. They're COMPLETELY impractical (and probably illegal) for modern life. The only way to wield theese weapons practically, is to walk around with them in the hand, like the european longswords were (or like an umbrella; you don't strap an umbrella to your back, -you certainly wouldn't if you carryed it for self-defence :D )

    I don't agree with statement 4. Well, it depends on what you compare it with. If you compare the amount of training it takes to change tyres, I agree with you, but if you compare it to mastering a simple straightsword/katana, I don't. In european manuals, it takes much more time to learn to master a simple sword than maces, helebards, axes, spears etc, and since body mechanics and physics are the same in the east as in the west, I guess that would be the case for theese weapons too. You learn a simple hooking-manouvre for trapping opponents blades, wrists, knee-joints, elbows and necks, you drill inn a thrust-cut manouvre towards the face, you drill in crossblock-deflect-counterstrike.

    I have a question; are they meant to be wielded as a pair? If so, coordinating the moves to get a fluent style without tripping the weapons in eachother seems to me as the greatest challenge in using this weapon(s)
     
  3. KuKulzA

    KuKulzA Taiwanese independence!

    yes they are meant to be used as a pair... and so it takes so much more training then just 1 I guess... for the reasons you said

    They're real cool and if someday I learn them I wish I could carry them around but... I dunno people get away with having guns but if you come into a grocery store with a large sword people get nervous... or amused... and then you migh tget into big trouble :(

    I guess something like the chinese broadsword is more practical, or the da-dao.... cause it can be substituted easily by a thick stick or a baseball bat ;)
     
  4. 19thlohan

    19thlohan Beast and the Broadsword

    I love these weapons! They take a while to get comfortable with but they have good techniques for every range( a limited number for long range of course) and they're very effective since they're sharp every where but the hand guard.

    They are taught as a single weapon in some styles but are most often taught in pairs. Weapons like this are where forms come in really handy. You get to build your coordination, fluidity and confidence with the weapon before having to face anyone else. They can be tuff to sparr with because of their akwardness but it can be done. It's a jian based weapon and is weilded as such but the rounded hooks allow for some of the slashing techniques of the dao. The cresent hand gaurds can be used just like cresent daggers, a lower level weapon in most styles.The hooks and hand guards can be used to trap and dissarm. The points at the bottom can be used like daggers when in close. We had an experienced fencer in one of my schools and we were messing around with me useing these and him using a jian. I hooked the heads together to blocked one of his thrusts and flowed right into a swing at his neck with the cresent part of the second sword. Having never seen anything like that before he just sort of stood there and cringed. I had to pull them back not to hit him. They would have no trouble slicing somebodies jugular at the very least when used this way.

    Thet are deffinatley impractical in modern times. They were mostly used in battles and were probably only carried when you knew you were going to be fighting.
     
  5. KuKulzA

    KuKulzA Taiwanese independence!

    cool... :)

    not to mention they were rare in self-defense and or battle though well known... meaning they took a lot of skill and practice and were harder to master
     
  6. El Tejon

    El Tejon MAP'scrazyuncle

    They are a weapon in most divisions of Northern Praying Mantis.

    19th covered most of the usual techniques--flicking, filleting, throwing the opponent, slashing, disarming and butt stroking are common.

    Trained like any other weapon, first drills, then forms, then two person forms, then sparring (have seen them wrapped in paper, always made me uneasy, prefer thick foam over dulled swords).

    Stole, yes, used as a par usually, however, single use is taught in some NPM schools.
     
  7. KuKulzA

    KuKulzA Taiwanese independence!

    northern praying mantis you say? huh, thats the style (or category) I hope to learn someday when i am ready... maybe that's why me Shifu has a pair hanging on the wall... I will ask him sometime...
     
  8. El Tejon

    El Tejon MAP'scrazyuncle

    Why wait? Are you injured? No time like the present. :)

    Which school?
     
  9. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    It would be fun to meet with someone who trains this kind of weapon. On occation I fight against people with 1h. axes, and I imagine that all of the hookingtechniques used by axewielders can be applied with this weapon... it's like a WW1-trench-dagger, crossbred with an 1h.axe :cool:

    The axewielders use the axe to thrust with (the upper corner of the axe edge -look at my Avatar ;) );that is not an option as the hook is round in the tip? I would have made the weapon pointy in the hook as well as below the grip.

    The most common use of the 1h axe is to hook shields, pull the opponents guard open, then reversing the pull into a thrust towards the face. It can be used to hook behind the knee, then pull out the scenes, tripping the opponent, it can be used to swing around the guard with the axehead (as an axe can hit behind a guard as opposed to a straight weapon), and it's used to trap enemy weapons and pull them out of the enemy's grip (easiest against other axes). Can anyone of you write somthing on which techniques are used with theese beauties?
     
  10. 19thlohan

    19thlohan Beast and the Broadsword

    Pretty much every thing you said for axes can be done with these as well. There are also several variations of these weapons and some do have a jian like point on the end with the hook coming of the side so pulling a weapon down and then thrusting in would be possible. Actually you can do that with the type shown as well since the entire edge was sharp you could cut someone with the rounded part. More often though you would thrust to unhook your sword from his weapon or shield and then at the last second you would flick your wrist to make more of a slashing cut than a stab/punture type of wound.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2006
  11. KuKulzA

    KuKulzA Taiwanese independence!

    why wait? cause I am a beginner and Praying Mantis is an advanced style, I need conditioning and to master more basics and simpler forms before I'll be ready for a very advanced style... personally I wouldn't feel ready if I was taught Tang Lang from the beginning with having little martial arts training before... I mean, consider it was invented by a guy who was an extremely advanced warrior said to have mastered severeal style of Kung Fu before inventing Tang Lang Quan...
    Boston Kung Fu Tai Chi Insititute North West Branch :D long name, here's the website if you are interested in learning more about it... http://www.iron-needle.com/index.html
     
  12. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.


    Doesn't matter if its advanced.. the teacher that can break it down and teach from the very beginning can make it work for you, and if you're willing to break it down into components and practice those until comprehension is grasped you can EASILY do it.

    Tang Lang is my second style, Shotokan being my first when I 6 years old and didn't stick with it. I've always been athletic growing up, but you make it seem as if tang lang is something hard to do.. It is long fist based, therefore you will learn long fist basics in your beginning years. Even your first few forms you'll learn are long fist. Hell the form I'm working on smoothing out right now resembles long fist to a T...
     
  13. KuKulzA

    KuKulzA Taiwanese independence!

    wow... I didn't know we'd have such a communication problem...
    cause what you say is basically the same as what i say

    I mean my goal is Tang Lang and my shifu knows that... and i am conditioning all the way and will be learning Gongli Quan (have begun the techniques but haven't connected and transitions) and then Lien Bu Quan and then Jie Quan and then I can begin my Tang Lang Quan...
    whether you say you are learning mantis and build your longfist basics or you say you are getting ready for mantis and doing longfist basics is the same I think if your goal is undnerstood by you and your shifu to be that you are going to learn Tang Lang Quan....
    so when you say break in down and do the simpler longfist based basics... that is exactly what I am/will be doing... so i think the only difference is the wording.... you say you doing mantis (when a beginner) but actually just preparing to actually do mantis and I say i am preparing for it,.... which I am...
    and when you say easy, its weird... I mean being very effective with it to the point were one can surpass their own shifu in that Quan.... I don't think that is easy...


    I think the problem here is one of communication...
    1. you call Tang Lang Quan everything that you doing to prepare for it and the style itself
    I call it the style itself, the training is longfist forms and basics
    2. you call doing tang lang easy, for me doing tang lang is being awesome to a degree where I can safetly say, I am close to mastery and able to defeat nearly all threats... if I cannot but I can apply decently... then to me I am learning Tang Lang well...




    EDIT:
    anyone know why Tiger Hook Swords are often in northern style Tang lang schools? I mean they do sorta look like mantis for-legs but.... yeah I dunno if thats the reason :D
     
  14. Tam Tui Mantis

    Tam Tui Mantis New Member

    uh, what he means is that when you start Mantis, you will go through all of the "longfist forms", then move on to mantis forms, regardless if you started in another style already. Besides, you prepare for a marathon by running, not jumping rope.The both increase endurance, but you should practice what you are doing, get it kinda? I am learning mantis, and it is not incredably hard or anything. You start off slow and work your way up. Good luck in learing mantis and the double hooks, I want to learn the hooks as well.
     

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