Thread Request

Discussion in 'Suggestions, Problems and Tests' started by Ero-Sennin, Feb 23, 2014.

  1. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    I'm not sure where or how to post this, but I would like to request the posts starting from #963 through #1000 in the thread "Apparently someone is very excited about their 15th Dan...", with the omission of posts #974, #975, #983, #984, #988, and #999 (as they are not entirely relevant to the topic I was presenting) be formed into their own thread. I am not sure of where the most beneficial place to post such a thread with the content of the posts would be and if my request is granted I would leave the title of such a thread as well as its location up to the discretion of the MAP moderation team.

    My reason for requesting this is that I believe the martial art of Ninjutsu is misrepresented in a grossly inaccurate way on MAP due to debating tactics and logical fallacies that may or may not be intentional in a significant enough portion of threads. Because of this I believe many negative opinions of Ninjutsu tend to be formed on MAP by regular users in the community and potential new members, and the full potential of learning about Ninjutsu is often not met. I would like to attempt to discuss the matter on an open forum for the benefit of the MAP community and its perception of Ninjutsu, as well as identify and discuss the root issues of the problem.

    I hold no malice or hostile intent towards the Ninjutsu community as a whole, nor do I intend to ask for the creation of a thread bashing Ninjutsu. I have recently defended certain positions by the Ninjutsu community, examples including these posts: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074838778&postcount=43, and http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074838787&postcount=45 in another recent thread. I do not approach this request with the often seen, "lets bash the Ninjutsu guys!" mentality that MAP has often had a problem with.

    I understand if my request goes ignored and or rejected due to its nature and the potential headaches it may cause the MAP moderation team.
     
  2. Guitar Nado

    Guitar Nado Valued Member

    I'm pretty impressed you read enough of that whole thread to pick out certain ones that are this or that. I ran out of energy on that (and other Ninjutsu mega threads) very quickly.

    No opinion one way or another on what you are asking for, just impressed that another non-ninjutsuka (is that sort of the correct term?) read that whole thing...
     
  3. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    While you're opinion neutral on the subject you indirectly make the point I am getting across. People don't stop reading the forum because they aren't interested in Ninjutsu, it's ignored because of the merry-go-round of not answering direct questions, misconstruing what others say, and a myriad of other issues that are commonly seen in the forum. I think the Ninjutsu forum has a lot of good information and can have more, and I think the harm some individuals may be doing intentionally or unintentionally are causing that community on MAP to suffer as a whole (more specifically concentrated in the Ninjutsu forum). I would like to open a dialogue about it, hopefully it happens but I'm not going to keep my hopes too high. I'm sure when or if a MOD reads this they're going to scoff and say, "yeah, ok buddy. Maybe if your name was yellow and you were going to do the leg work to monitor the potential downward spiral." :p
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2014
  4. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I think that if you want to discuss ninjutsu from a perspective of other martial arts, you are already making an error in understanding. It is different from other martial arts in several ways(the most important difference being the legacy of misinformation and misunderstanding about it that is often furthered by people with seemingly good intentions), and the ninjutsu forum is treated stricter than other threads due to not only infighting and things like you complain about, but because people often come to troll in that section more than others. Sure, threads may get heated, but the written word is not always the easiest way to express oneself, and misunderstandings and mistakes will be made(just like in any other forum). To call out individuals or make sweeping statements attempting to point blame isn't really going to make the forum any better, it reads to be more of a witch hunt and attempting to stir up more trouble than an attempt to improve anything. As long as this thread doesn't dissolve into that, there might be something positive to be had, but your stance already sounds a bit biased when you start off by blaming the perceived problems with image on the plethora of personality related issues you bring up.

    There are plenty of questions about the art that are answered in the Ninjutsu Resources area, which most newcomers to ninjutsu probably don't familiarize themselves with before jumping into conversations with a mentality and understanding brought from their own art of expertise.

    So if you want to help the image of ninjutsu and the ninjutsu forum, you might want to start your crusade by asking people to familiarize themselves with these resources and make sure that you also are familiar with the things laid out wherein.

    Here is the page:
    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=98

    There are plenty of frauds and impostors out there who teach ninjutsu, there are also political issues ranging from the different Xkans, indies groups, and the normal everyday things you find in other arts as well. Without understanding how this affects the tone of conversation and the reason why dispelling the claims of fake ninjers is a subject that is often discussed, it might just sound like people are disagreeing to disagree or arguing and creating conflict where no conflict exists.

    Also, since there are so many people out there who don't know as much about ninjutsu as they may think they do, and often people use whatever bits and pieces of notes, videos, and things they find off the internet to make themselves sound like they know what they are doing, you can imagine that certain details aren't necessarily things that people in the know are willing to just put out there for anyone to read and use. Add to that the constant questions and assumptions that people outside the art ask, and maybe one can understand why people who know something about it have developed a hairpin trigger. People have different personalities, posting styles, and experience in the arts, so to assume that questions aren't being answered to your satisfaction is based on some ulterior motives does a disservice to conversation and what you seem to want to foster.

    If you feel that ninjutsu is misrepresented, in which ways do you feel that this is the case? What do you base your opinion on, have you ever studied ninjutsu and to what extent if you did? Most threads in that forum are ninjutsu specific, so without any background in the arts or exposure to at least a rudimentary understanding about the history and current situation of the ninjutsu community, it may be hard for an outsider to make sense of what they read. Ninjutsu is not boxing or karate or MMA, so the way things are discussed and the terminology used might sound foreign and difficult to understand if one has no experience with the arts. Certain concepts like kukan, sakki, and others might not be readily acceptable to someone who doesn't train in ninjutsu. If one hates koans and wants to discuss ninjutsu in a dry and prosaic way, it may prove a harder task than one might believe.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2014
  5. Grass hopper

    Grass hopper Valued Member

    i think that's a fabulous idea ero, i'd be a liar if i said that i've always kept an open mind about ninjutsu and the specific issues you mentioned definitely played a role.

    if we got a thread together for people to ask blunt questions and get blunt answers (no circular speech, no riddles) then i think there would be less suspicion about ninjutsu on MAP.
     
  6. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    This is not the place for this Please reality. I'm trying to get a thread started, this isn't the section of MAP in which it is appropriate.
     
  7. bujingodai

    bujingodai Retired Supporter

    I locked the thread itself. It ran out of use. Came off the rails so to speak. Mods will take your request under thought and review it.
     
  8. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    Thank you moderator bujingodai, I look forward to the MOD's conclusion.
     
  9. John R. Gambit

    John R. Gambit The 'Rona Wrangler

    I respect whatever decision the moderators reach as I am merely a guest here, but I'd like to address a few things while it's still under consideration.

    Frequently I notice moderators express very understandable frustration at personal conflicts that carry throughout threads and drag several otherwise unrelated topics into the same quagmire of childishness. I personally believe this is in part due to the natural byproduct of an aggressive policy to lock conflict-oriented threads. In that environment the personal disagreements are never allowed to mature to fruition and be as resolved as they can be. Personal bitterness and rivalry are merely dispersed and drag on for extended periods of time. Now I much, much prefer the culture of MAP over Bullshido, but this is perhaps the only thing I feel they do correctly there. Obviously the "no censorship policy" cannot work the same in a family-oriented forum like MAP. I don't have a solution in mind, I'm merely addressing a point intrinsic to the issue. I do not feel private correspondences are the solution based on the technical limitations of MAP's internal mail system.

    MAP is the best ninjutsu community I've found on the Internet so far. Unfortunately the bar is very low in this regard. Can MAP do better than it already does? I don't know. I know the heavy moderation required in the ninjutsu subforum is a drain on finite moderation resources and you have my continued sympathies for that.

    One more point I want to address is that you're all way too damn nice. This is a big part of why I love MAP. Your moderation team polices itself very self-consciously. Unfortunately, people who are experts at bending rules without quite breaking them often have prolonged stays despite what I am confident is a widespread moderator dislike of the offensive party. The trolls always go quickly, but those whose intentions are more ambiguous and who merely thrive on natural conflict do not.

    You all do what I often cannot: express a tremendous amount of patience with childish behavior from adults. So whatever is decided, I am sincerely grateful for the time you all volunteer to support what unfortunately might already be the best solution for inexperienced students to find some legitimate ninjutsu information.

    John
     

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