Discussion in 'Ju Jitsu' started by dsm, Feb 15, 2013.
everyone gets to wear a hakama?
Dean, that's a good question. JJJ, Akido, and Judo came out of Aiki Jujutsu and it doesn't have the rules that the other three have.
This betrays an ignorance of training methodology for starters - what do you even mean by JJJ? What ryu?
What is your rank and experience in these - or other - arts?
judo came from aiki jujitsu? i'd love for a reference to this, because i've never, ever heard that.
aikido has rules? you've studied aikido?
Oh by Kahless's beard.
Aikido has the obvious connection but as for the other two no they didn't and what rules would you be talking about exactly?
I'm stealing these descriptions online because they're fairly accurate.
As Kuro pointed out, there are three lines of techniques in Daito-ryu, including aiki-jujutsu which focuses on redirection of attacks. However, the term "aiki-jujutsu" is generally used to refer to Daito-ryu as a whole, and is considered aikido's parent art. Ueshiba Morihei, the founder of aikido, trained under Sokaku Takeda who is often considered the founder of modern Daito-ryu.
Curriculum-wise, aikido shares many of the same joint-locks and throws from Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, but puts less emphasis on atemi or striking. Also, training in aikido is usually less physically intense, and has an added focus on self-development/self-betterment.
Aikijujutsu is also the original. Jujutsu and Aikido are children to the original.
Modern Aikido dojos as a rule of thumb, maybe. O'Sensei was adamant that Aikido is nothing without good atemi.
Wow. No. Just no.
Modern Aikido generally isn't that physically intense because generally speaking people are lazy.
I'm just going to leave this here.
You also didn't answer Dean's question about the rules:
You are right. I'm not an expert and decided to let the link answer that question. It's precisely why I gave a url that explains more then I ever could. I can tell you this. Aikido and Jiu Jitsu or Jujutsu are watered down versions of Aikijujutsu which was created for true battle. There are comments in that link that can explain more specific differences. I'm not saying that Aikido isn't effect or Jujutsu isn't effective. I think they both are but Aikijujutsu is the parent and is more aggressive then the other two.
Generally speaking Daito-ryu is not considered a Koryu as there are various questions hanging over it's history.
You need to get your head around a few things before you continue as I feel the discussion would not progress because you appear to be lacking in a few areas. Also you need to be far more specific when discussing the older arts.
You do realise that various systems of koryu which include jujutsu were developed for "battle"?
Do you understand what we mean when we talk about Jujutsu?
We aren't referring to one art but a range of systems that vary depending on context and the historical period the developed in, everything from the terms used to how the integrate alongside weapon usage will differ in some way.
You say "Jujutsu" but depending on the ryu-ha in question you could really mean kogusoku, koshi no mawari, torite, yawara, hade, kowami, kumi uchi, shubaku, tode, hakuda, kempo and koppo. Not only that but throughout a ryu-ha terms can vary depending on what part of the curriculum you are dealing with.
Oh and what rules are you on about exactly?
So with no experience, ability or knowledge you feel qualified to have a polemic (and by the way wrong) opinion?
Lets see how that works out for you.......
just a comment about this....i know you said "generally" but still....
i think it comes down to the dojo and the practitioner. yes, i've studied at a dojo that was ridiculously "ki"-oriented and many of the practitioners were actually fat and lazy. systema was also taught at the same dojo--go figure.
but i also studied at a very mainline aikido dojo, and while there were some fat and old guys, it was those guys that taught aikido with atemi and actually did know how to fight. and practice there was/is very physical. and we did a lot of weapons work. and i got popped in the face more than once because i didn't first evade the attack. as i became friendly with the higher ranking people, and they knew i got a black belt in hapkido, let's just say they helped me see more about the martial nature of the art than maybe some people don't see.
also, do you know about koyo? if not, look him up on the aikido thread.
Yeah, I'd agree with that. Hell in the club I go to, the style of training and class varies massively on who is taking it and who you're partnered up with.
Much as I love Aikido though, I do get the impression that it generally tends to draw people who lack any real confidence in themselves and ultimately tend to shy away from conflict and more...aggressive(?)...training? Which probably sounds hypocritical considering how I was when I started Aikido, but still.
Isn't that the crazy one where they allow people to scrape them with the knives and then just twirl around really slowly?
Yeah, I found out about him a few months after I joined MAP. Before my time but I very much wish I'd been around when he was still active. He sounded amazing.
Just a side note on Aikido. I found the closer you can get to Morihei Ueshiba or one of his original students more intense the aikido is. What i mean by that is basically trace the lineage. For instance my instructor is Gaël Marchand, his instructors where Noro Sensei, Tamaura Shihan (8th dan), Kawahara Shihan (8th dan), Tohsiro Suga (6th Dan) and Jaff Raji (5th Dan). The two that he spent the most amount of time with as far as im aware was Tamaura and Tohsiro. Tohsiro does our dojos grading. I can tell you i get just as good of a workout doing aikido as i did doing boxing, that's saying something.
I have been to other Aikido dojos that i found very relaxed to be polite, i did not stay very long and what i found is that you had to go a long way down the lineage befor you finally saw the name of a shihan. This has just been my experience. I'm sure their are practitioners that are extremely intense that have never met a shihan and vice versa.
I for one love aikido. I don't see my self giving it up any time soon.
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