Thinking about Aikido

I know a guy, he's 53/54 I think. Trains three times a week, and comes to the mma class and always gives as good as he gets.

People need to stop linking MMA to competing at older ages. I'd say the majority of people training MMA do not compete. You don't have to fight to practice MMA.

 

I trained MMA for a fair few years and in four countries. Heck, the vast majority of students didn't even do no-gi/BJJ type comps. let alone step in the ring.

Most people were there just to learn how to fight or have a hobby.

 

Would Aikido work in a cage?
Probably not.
Would Aikido work against someone trying to bop you in the mouth?
Absolutely.

I personally spent 15+ years trying to bop Koyo in the mouth. You can guess how well that went!

 

Why do you think Aikido wouldn't work in the cage?

 

Aikido principles are designed to help you keep your head, cut through the attackers intention to strike. Killing the spirit and the posture. In a real life situation that basically means "hit him while he's mouthing off at you" or "get your response in first". So it's really not a 'sparring' mentality as such. It's not designed for an competitive match at a predefined time in place. Aikido is designed to build a strong body and an unbreakable spirit that will stand up to a surprise attack.

Over and above that in relies on small joint manipulation and general dirty fighting. I've had lots of years training Mauy Thai I've found Aikido principles to be very effective when sparring, though not the techniques. Similarly training in Aikido we often see opportunities to apply Mauy Thai type techniques.
Maybe in the cage an Aikidoka can hit the other guy while the ref is introducing him ����

For these reasons I always see the 'would Aikido work in a cage' discussions as fairly pointless. It like comparing apples to toasters.

 

Are you guys referring to Waki Gatame, which I think is banned in Judo. If memory serves, a promeinent Judoka had their arm broken during the All Japan Open in the 70's, and it was considered too dangerous (mainly because once the armbar was done from standing, the Judoka would tend to thrown the person on the ground and land their weight on the extended arm). I am guessing this may have been done as a "finishing" technique in case the person didn't tap from the standing armbar.

In Tomiki/Shodokan Aikido, it's done from standing only. The score is given if tori secures control of the attacking arm for at least an amount of time (might be 5 seconds??). So it's more of a control in Aikido, rather than a submission hold like it is in Judo.

Waki Gatame in Judo (WARNING: Not for the squeamish due to injury):

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbHMy0u_5Kk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbHMy0u_5Kk[/ame]

Waki Gatame in Aikido:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlhQdNn4IrA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlhQdNn4IrA[/ame]

I had a clip on here before of Waki Gatame in Tanto Randori, I will dig it out.

 

This looks identical to Rokkyo, powerful technique. Usually happens by chance when Ikkyo goes wrong.

 

Here's the variation that commonly appears during training.

http://youtu.be/pnBadpfmzyc

 

I'd argue that competitive fighting is not a sparring mentality either. Sparring is development tool and the mindset is/should be different than a confrontation or competitive fight where the aim is to finish your opponent.
I don't really know that whether the match is at a predetermined time rather than a surprise attack makes much difference other than the varying psychological and emotional demands of each. Surely the same fortitude you cultivate for a surprise attack would have utility in a cage fight?

You say that Aikido works when someone is trying to bop you in the face and that you've tried hitting your instructor to no avail frequently so this would suggest that a) you are able to use it against an expected attack of undisclosed timing or nature b) you are using Aikido in a form of sparring c) you aren't training just to use atemi pre-emptively.

I don't think the majority of Aikido practice works especially well in any context but am aware that there are exceptions of which your school purportedly is one... I think it should stand up across contexts if that is the case. Many fighters need to augment their base skillset with other arts to be competitive in modern MMA but the arts 'work' if Aikido is functionally sound then it should work in the cage. A punch is a punch.

 

Yup most definitely. A fighting spirit is a fighting spirit whatever the situation. In a competitive fight you've agreed to fight, agreed on the time , agreed on the place. My point is that Aikido practice is designed to develop the ability to keep your head when the proverbial hits the fan. Not nessecstily to make you great in the ring. Though there sre obviously cross overs.

 

Definitely not, perhaps my explanation wasn't that clear, though to be fair I was making a joke.

 

If the guy has years' of Muay Thai experience, then one would presume he's perfectly able to hit people in the face under pressure.

What I'm interested in, is how Aikido principles can work in a sporting context, but not the techniques. Shouldn't the techniques be the most optimum embodiments of the principles?

 

Hi David,

Aikido principles all come from swordsmanship. For example:
Omote: To enter positively through an attack.
Kusushi; To break the attackers posture by unbalancing.
Suki; To take openings as they appear or better still create an opening, while leaving as few as possible in your own kamae.

These principles could easily apply to cage fighting art any art for that matter.

To be clear Aikido strikes would work in a cage, a punch is a punch and an elbow is an elbow. However small joint manipulation like Sankyo or Nikkoyo would not be allowed and are probably impossible to do with a glove on, even MMA ones. If anything Ikkyo and Irimi might be the two techinques you could pull off.

Also many common Aikido strikes would simply not be permitted in competition. Strikes to the groin, kneecap an of course the good old head butt (I am from Glasgow after all).

Again I still think it's a bit of a circular argument.

 

Don't most arts have these intentions?

Not wanting to get into an argument about it, but if the major techniques can be so easily thwarted by wearing a glove, that would suggest to me that they are not the optimum techniques for your given principles.

 

In answer to the question are there any good fighters who are Aikidoka. There are skilled competitive Aikidoka who compete in the Shodokan Aikido Federation and the Japan Aikido Association world championships. Over the years the British National Squad has been one of the most successful teams in the world producing several world champions.

I think that Chadderz and Bozza Bostik have mad a valid point that most people practice as a hobby and do not wish to compete. I know that within my club there are many members who are happy to just practice as a hobby.

 

So would all those techniques work on a fighter.... who isn't wearing gloves?

 

You mean this kind of stuff?

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX0yseYpoBA"]Morgan vs Yamada 2009 International Aikido Tournament men's randori round 2 - YouTube[/ame]

 

While nut shots and head butts are indeed illegal, nothing else you listed is against the Unified Rules. Specifically, the "small joints" that you're not allowed to manipulate are fingers and toes, wrists (and ankles) are completely fair game.

 

But they also wrapped and tapped to support the wrist and so making the hand/wrist joint much harder to manipulate than if it wasn't (although I'm not supporting the notion that not being wrapped then makes wrist locks a good choice for first line self defence).

 

Each art is good for what it was created for. A BJJ black belt I know is a 5th degree bb in Aikido and has wristlocked his way to the finals of tournaments. It's more practioner than art dependent - to a point as there's still more than 2 moving pieces to this.