The WORST knife defense I have seen...well since the last one

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Hannibal, Jun 12, 2013.

  1. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    That will depend on a number of factors, you could do it against the telegraphed attacks we saw in the Systema clip, for today it's probably not the best choice. You'll probably find it's for a certain context.

    The pic is a poor example, look at the attacker's position and his feet in relation to the defender, it's too artificial, and then look at the defeneder's structure.

    It looks like a transition rather than the start or end piece.

    Is it from "Get Tough"?
     
  2. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Agreed. But would a person weilding a knife really start off with so high of a arc for the slash?



    It isnt easy trying to search for pics to describe. I had found a few vids, but by the time I figured out how to post those, I can't seem to relocate those.



    It looks like a transition rather than the start or end piece. [/QUOTE]
    Could be. But it still makes you wonder, how can the hand catch a rm that is moving with power and momentum on a downward arc.


    Don't know. As I had stated, it isn't easy to find certain pics per the discussion
     
  3. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    What makes you think they would start high?




    I appreciate that but it makes discussing things tricky if the reference points are flawed to begin with.



    Timing and distance. He's not catching it at the end point of the movement, he's moved in, closed the distance and intercepted it at a much earlier point also the position he's connecting at makes a difference.

    Again though this is all just lab time it's pretty specific, IMO.

    It reminds me a lot of old school jujutsu in the way the attack is trained and the basic concepts behind the defender's actions.
     
  4. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I don't understand what the V-block is, but it is definitely not a grab. I imagine that it refers to the shape formed by the fingers and thumb (v-shape). It is more of a strike.

    For the left hand in the picture, it is in the right position to sweep just above the elbow. Like I said in a previous post... if you can sweep the elbow, it will likely work... however, getting to the elbow safely is very difficult.

    If I can get to the elbow and sweep it, I can make any knife defense look good and I don't need a whole lot of skill. I be looking like an expert!!! But this is all just basic stuff... the hard part is getting there and that is why it is better to have a weapon yourself, than try to do this unarmed.

    On another note, the issue with a V-shape hand position is that the thumb is weak. The thumb is providing a larger surface area to help prevent the opponent's arm from moving around the hand and into the defender. This ONLY works, IMHO, if the opponent has no leverage to apply any real force through the thumb. The C-shape hand position is a little better for this, but again, you don't want any real leverage to go through the thumb.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
  5. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    That's how I see it, very much a case of moving in to it and using your structure and timing to interrupt the movement.

    Sorry my brain is on the fritz today and that's the best I can do. :D
     
  6. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    Could you?

    Why don't you tell us more about what you think of this attack and possible defenses?
     
  7. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter


    I assume the "v" description is the shape of the arms ?
    But I do see it as more of an interuption to transition to something else , maybe like a heaven and earth or even ikyo type movement ala Aikido ?
    X blocks are universally pretty awful , probably the worst example I've come across was a quite small lady trying to use it against my front kick (Shotokan guys who practice Kanazawas kihon ippons will have done it) I think I lifted her at least a foot :eek:
     
  8. MAnoobie

    MAnoobie New Member

    I was browsing the forums when i found this one and seen a video earlier that might interest you guys. :D Video has a lot of swearing btw.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E61jnJe_1SI"]The Reality Of Knife Attack - Deane Lawler @ the A.I.M Academy 2011 - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2013
  9. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Good find.

    Might be worth adding a warning that the clip contains un-TOS-like language.
     
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I have a set of counter knife techniques with your back to a wall I developed. The sewing machine attack in the video is the first attack to deal with in the set.

    I taught the first two in the set at a seminar last year and people really liked it.

    The situation in the video is bad, but it is not impossible to have a fighting chance. Everyone should have some pressure tested applications that they have got to work in that situation. IMHO, the same principles that work for one, should work for another... there is not what if this I do that and what if that I do this... the underlying principles should work for all situations.
     
  11. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    Would you share those two etc in this thread? Be interested to see what you have to say on this matter - Thanks.
     
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I don't like to share them because I consider them my intellectual property. I don't mind teaching them to people that come train with me. It is not that I don't think any one else hasn't come up with something like them or better, it is more that when I teach them in person, I learn too from the experience. And also, when I teach them, I can see how people start to change them and many of the times those changes are for the worst... even though they might not realize they are changing them. (By worst I mean they start to ignore the principles.)

    I tell you what... When I get back from work (in about 10 hours), I'll post a text description of the first one only because it is for the attack in the video. I don't mind feedback, just want credit where credit is due.
     
  13. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    I FEEL THE SAME WAY SOMETIMES^^^

    I understand the desire to keep credit of something, but perhaps there are those who already doing the same methods.

    You could always send a vid/link to someone in a PM, with a request to keep it closed-private.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2013
  14. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    Hey that's fair enough ;)

    Post what you feel you want to. Be glad to see-hear what you're doing - Thanks
     
  15. HarryF

    HarryF Malued Vember

    It could be for "training purposes" - start with big motions so people can see, feel and react to what is happening, and then (importantly) reduce the size of the motions so everything becomes more subtle, faster, and harder to deal with.

    With regard to the X-block, many people seem to have effectively picked it apart, and, seemingly those who know more about Japanese arts than I are suggesting that the "x-block against and overhead downward stab" is not the correct application. (please feel free to correct me if I'm reading the other posts wrongly!)

    Anyway, Kali has a *similar looking* position (roof block, or sumbrada block, or sumbrada gunting, or something else), but with some incredibly important differences:

    1) your footwork and body positioning should allow you to move as many vitals as possible out of the way of the incoming ordnance.

    2) two of your limbs should not be in prolonged contact with one of their limbs - if their attacking hand is carrying too much momentum to be stopped dead (ha!), you have no other backup than to get tagged; (more generally) their primary attack may trap both your limbs leaving them free to follow up with the other arm; etc.

    3) one hand is usually for hitting the attackers attacking limb, and the other for 'checking' the position of the limb and 'monitoring' where it goes next - you no longer need to stop their incoming limb in its tracks as you've moved a bit out of the way. Sometimes I find myself hitting the limb first, then 'checking' fractionally later (on the half beat), other times both happen simultanaeously. Which one is right? Yes.

    The whole thing is just one fleeting moment, but the aim is to both reduce the probability of losing immediately, have a point of contact on the attackers limb (the 'checking' hand), and have the other hand free to follow up with either a more significant strike, or better control of the limb, situation dependent.

    This is by no means "guaranteed" to work "every time", and it is just one possible response to one possible stimulus, trained in a manner which aims to increase the probability (and length) of survival.

    As I’m sure a lot of you know, Kali provides (or should provide) many different responses to each stimulus, and trains for all likely stimuli, starting from a ‘naked technique’, building to all out ‘free flow’, to paraphrase others: aliveness, resistance and variations are the cornerstones to functionality in a fighting art.

    No matter what level you are, when training with knives EVERYONE should have been cut multiple times each session, if someone is “too good”, then you are not feeding at a high enough intensity, if someone’s “amazing” and no one can get near them, do 2 on 1, or 3 on 1, then see how amazing they are.

    Just try to think of every “death” as a “lesson”, and you should all come out saying “we really learnt a lot today!” and you can restore some positivity to the horrors that are edged weapon encounters.
     
  16. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

  17. furinkazan

    furinkazan Valued Member

    I always wondered why trying to defend a knife was so popular. My best bet in situations like this is run the hell away. My life is more important to me than my phone
     

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