The value of Tae Kwon Do training?

This, was a very interesting read. But now I have a slight headache, I did have some thoughts and comments but this has been debated to death about!

From an objective perspective I found Stuart and Kwan Jang's posts very well thought out and informative. Thanks


In regards to MB I see where he is coming from and I can understand it, I have harbored a similar mentality to opinions in the past as the gospel truth. I guess sometimes views just can't be changed from words alone, it takes a little understanding and perspective to see where someone else might be coming from. I hope MB you with time and a little more wisdom learn to respect/understand others views in a manner that sheds a little more light on your own arguments a little better.

My two cents!

 

Yea.Thats the way it is. Ill reply when I can.

I dont get what your saying here trying to say here. Are you doing Goju or TKD?

What are you claiming people get from applications that can not be gotten from elsewhere? What are you claiming they do better than learning to fight?

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Yea, changes that take it further away from how it was originaly percieved,apparently.And by taking if further away it gets sillier and less likely to be what it is.

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If people want to do this stuff ,fine. Fair play. I just dont believe that its a better way to train and everything is already out there in proper fighting systems plus all those who push it seem to contradict themselves by also learning to fight yet selling it as something thats a replacememt for it.Its like me saying to everyone in my car ''dont wear a seatbelt this car is realy safe and im a great driver''.....then I put a seat belt on.

I would argue that is just how you are reading it in your mind. I have never mentioned specific moves. My original post says that its not possible to know whats what as some are genuine attemps to put fighting into a form and some of it is expresions through movement so its pointless to try to find them and theres nothing that cannot be found in fighting systems .I would say to you how do YOU know for sure what you are saying is true?

Its about gathering information ,learning from others and critical thinking.

Everymove can be shaped and has been to somehow be an application but they are never shown at a high intensity against determined opponents, just in demos or low intensity. The ones that are something worthwhile are the same as those found in fighting systems anyway and trained better in those systems. An example is that in a pattern there might be a part implying you grab the neck or shoulders and knee. That can be found elsewhere and its trained to a more proffessional level with more variations and so why oh why bother getting it from a pattern/kata/form. Thats just one example.

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Im affraid you didnt understand my point. I said why should I do all my research and training and go to seminars and then just say what I know on here.

But its all already out there waiting to be trained.Thats more benificial.Theres no need for apllications except if people enjoy taking the slow route. And I have never said thats bad if people want to do that.

So you learn to fight too. Thats what iv been saying all along. Everone involved in the application world learns to fight also yet then claims its applications that they are using. The fighting skills are the key.

No they are not irrelevant. Shotakan goes back to Goju ...Goju goes back to the China. Each changing..each getting further away from the original intention.

I dare not press the link in case I loose my reply, lol. But, come on...Sanchin is not in TKD.Jeez.
But shotakan is watered down Goju.

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The policeman started a fight which he luckily won. He hit the guy. Thats the other way of looking at it. Your looking at it from the ''SD club'' view. ''It was a pre-emptive strike''..did he use a 'fence'' too?
No i dont recognise that pattern apliacations are pre -cursers or whatever. Its more balls to me.Sorry. If two guys come together in a ring after ref says ''go'' and one wacks the other out, you dont consider it a fight?

Actualy I have been saying all along...HELLO... that those into applications also learn to fight and that is the key.

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Again..in your mind I am implying I know. I mentioned this above.

Its not. How can you say that phrase when your pretending to hit the throat or whatever. How can mke tyson bite an ear or Mayweather get a headbutt in a pro fight? Those boxers didnt train that. Their traing got them in the position to survive that long and get close enough to do it.D o you think theres a magic chain that floats in the universe that stops every person training in a sporting context stepping outside it? Do you thin everyone training wants to be in the ring?Do you know the olympics were born out of war. Alexanders the greats warriors trained in wrestling and boxing as well as weapons and were in fights to the death. Would you train full on with wooden swords or use real ones but just pretend to hit each other and stop short if you had to learn?

There are submissions. They can be applied in slightly different ways ..its not fixed.Its not set ''moves'' .You learn the fundamentals then fit them to you. You dont learn moves to get position you learn ways to enhance your natural movement to get position or which points of your body you can use to be most effective and it changes rapidly. Its nothing like patterns moves.

Oh yea...my sporting mindset..this magic chain again. Humans are not that idiotic.We adapt well. Why do people who dont ever ever train in anything survive encounters then?....By your reconing only those training these SD applications will survive or bother doing anything.

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It would be nice to see. How do you train a throat strike 'safely' without pretending? Or an arm break?

So your victim just stops and say'' yea that would of killed me''. And you start again? How does that work with a throat strike or arm break? Iam lost....your going full speed yea...he is resisting.. yea...then what?

No...we pad up ..or we use pads to fight a pad man or we dont go full on but its fairly obviouse when a person is dominating the other... or occasionaly have a real competative fight...yes a sporting one. There are lots of ways.like the cips....but at some point theres full power or the option to do it. And no one gets hurt bad because both have trust and both should be on a similar level through training

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I am not. You have said you leant to fight. Im saying thats the key...even if you dont admit it or know it my points have been that learning to fight is the key.And you learnt to fight too.

 

Imploding universe.....

 

Erm,,,im discussing and answering or correcting points made from my points. If im protesting too much then so is Stuart.
I have not said im ready to be convinced or that I know everything. I said I dont mind being wrong...I learn if im wrong...I learn if i lose. Could you be wrong...could Stuart be wrong? I doubt we will be hearing that.

 

Well, here's the problem with this discussion, from my point of view. Those of us arguing for the usefulness of kata aren't denying the usefulness of MT and other MMA-friendly arts that tend to be stripped down for economy, ease and effectiveness.

We are simply saying, 'Yes, but...'

There are many paths to climb the same mountain, as some actor playing a Chinese sage once said.
We feel kata is one of them, based, in part, on its usefulness over centuries. We don't say it's for everyone, perhaps a minority of MA enthusiasts, but for them it's quite often what makes MA so interesting & important in their lives.

To claim that it's a pointless waste of time is the censorious view, that says, let's have less varieties of training, not more. That's essentially a radical POV, esp. as you've been now presented with lots of examples of how kata can be effective. To make that claim with any authority, I think you'd have to seriously train in TMAs.
And even then, wisdom should dictate humility. I hate omelets, really make me nauseous, can't see the use for em. I also believe that others find them uniquely delicious and beneficial in enriching their lives!

 

Okay... will try and sick with it then.

The patterns of TKD are related to the kata of Okinawa (not Goju - see later for that).. it just that along the way, the value & applications of kata have been lost/forgotton/ laid by the side, which ever one you wish to pick - I simply look at the TKD pattern as containng the DNA of their heritage and thus work with that principle in mind, rather than the modern (and by that I mean 1900's onwards) way of looking at them.

The usefulness of their forms..which to those that study this area as part of their art. I havnt claimed its better than learning to fight.. why would I do that, I don't see them as fighting - i see them as 'first instances' to end a fight before it starts. IMO, if your in a fight, you have made some major errors to get there to begin with!

Not IMO.. AFAIC the changes made from Chinese forms to Okinawan kata were made in the best interests of those that needed them as the time.. basically cutting out much of the stuff that was too flowy or two long (from what Ive researched).

Depends what you train for. I training fighting, in case I muck up my SD!

A null point, as I have said on quite a few occassions in this thread that its not fighting (at least how you, I and others see it - fighting that is). Secondly, I have already said on quite a few occassions that I dont see it as a replacement for fighting either - they are two sides to a coin that compliment each other - they are not mutually exclusive of each other.

No its like you telling everyone its a safe car, then putting your seat belt on (along with them) to make it safer still!

I know you didnt.. that was my whole point! Though you alluded 'you knew' (a few times), so I simply though that if you knew for sure, then you`d be able to point out what techniques you refer to.

I`ll take your word for that as Im not gonna go back looking through all these long posts. I seem to recall you saying something along the lines of "Fuijan MA's had moves that were for religious things and thus didnt have applications" - which is why I asked which ones PLUS how do we know the Okinawan's didnt remove such moves in the formation of their kata - I already said they heavily changed them to suit their purposes.. taking such moves out would also make much sense.

Because it comes from martial historians who have spent along time research the subject - a lot more than doing some TKD and saying "thats crap cos it aint fighting" (not that Im saying thats what you did of course )

So why dont you then? Do you own any material on the applications of kata etc. If so, what?

As I said earlier, thats fair enough.. I see some of the drills people do at high intensity.. you don't - thats fine. KO fighters dont sepnd their training sessions knocking out their training partners either! We 'train' - we can drill many of them hard, for sure, but its never gonna be like seeing stuff in a ring as the rules dont allow stuff (tale that as a cop out if you want, but its true), so unless we are on the street and get filmed on vide being attacked.. videos for you to see will be rare as hens teach.

Like I said - when was the last time MMA or NHB trained knifehand strike - out of interest, when was the last time you did?

Funnily enough, the pattern with this in actually teaches how to block & grab this technique to throw the opponent to the grounds, prior to actually teaching the knee and grab which finish it off with a neck-twist (is that allowed in sport martial arts btw!).

As an aside, patterns/kata also force students to practice stuff they may not do usually.. in the example above, students have no choice but to practice the defence, whereas if training for a ring fight, you might not or you do it very little in comparison to the knee strike, in fact if you fight ina rule-set that doesnt allow knee kicks, you probibly would practice either (attack/defence for knees) at all! In standard TKD (comp) sparring knees arnt allowed.. yet even at a basic level we still practice both to use them and defend them!

It seemed then (and now) that you feel further research wouldnt change you POV.. so your mind is made up - thats what I said isnt it!

Kata covers a different area & different concepts IMO

If its a slow route to be able to stop a fight before it starts.. to me it matters not, its a beneficial route all the same... and until then, they can just fight anyway!

I said I learned fighting prior to getting into decent patterns apps and that knowing how to fight made no difference in apply apps (well maybe a little, but certainly not to the level you refer to).

Theres no evidence of that and youtr point is mute as virtually all martial arts that involve kata, also involve sparring of varying types - so students have to learn both anyway!

No it doesnt - Shotokan and Goju come from different routes - they are not related (AFAIA) apart stemming from the same island... but they have different Chinese routes and developed differently. Shotokan from Matsumura, then Itosu and Goju via Higaonna then Miyagi - point is, they developed differently, one is not a branch of the other and TKD stems from the Shotokan line - Goju has nothing to do with it.

But, as you keep mentioning Goju - they do kata and they drill applications as well + they a decent/tough fighters to boot!

Well, you can press it now, then you`ll see what I was getting at!

Hardly. See above!

Fiar enough perhaps - though I see a fight as an exchange of blows - not one!

Sure I am.. cos IMO, thats what he did - he defended a woman, then himself! Did he use a fence - maybe, theres others fence that don't involve putting your hands up!

Then we are discussing from two different perspectives and it will be impossible to find a concensus!

You mean two guys that know whats coming, whats allowed, whats not and fully expect to end in a tear up - yup, thats fight.. just with a lucky punch! If one of the fighters deliberatly targeted the ref with a punch and KO'd him.. thats not a fight, thats an assault and if the ref blocked/dodged such a thing and took the other guy out, then thats self defence, if the ref dodged it and they scrapped, then thats a fight too (with assault and self defence mixed into it)... sorry, your point was?

See above X 3

Okay.. whatever you say... it definatly did seem that way (quite a few times in fact)

Okay.. if so say so. Its a well used expression, because funnily enough it makes lots of sense - see the security guard video again for your evidence of this (I know you like that stuff - video evidence that is!)

Pulling a dangerous technique is not the same as pretending. like I said above, do you KO your training partners every session.. if not, your play fighting too right?

Cos they are dirty fighters I guess! the same as Herbie Hide (I think) on the street, who swang a few punchs, got grabbed, fell to floor and looked like a fish out the fish bowl - he didnt flow into other stuff, he tried what he learned and when (for whatever reason) it didnt come off, he reverted back to the way you fight if you havnt any training (in his case, the ground).

Not at all - in fcat i know of one semi-contact points fighter that used just that on the street and his timing & technique resulted in killing someone! Yet all you FC guys would be just as vocal about that type of sparring/training as well I guess!

No, but i would hazard that if one was to take up a martial art designed as a ring sport, the training would be the same whether you decided to test it or not! So in essence, they would react the same!

So, if one of Alexandras warriors wrestled his opponent and threw him to the floor and drew his woddern sword.. would he thrust it through his neck, or pull it short?

Nor are applications.. how they are done in the pattern, is often slightly different when executed as an SD move...an arm bar is an arm bar and has to be executed according to certain parameters otherwise the leverage isnt there - same as an application! You are comparing something 'set' in a solo pattern, to something that is allowed more flow... solo patterns are simply basics.. the same as teaching a basic submission.. its where you take them after that that counts!

Actuall, the way i see it is that you learn both moves & positioning, then they merge togethor.. as one without the other isnt much cop!

Actually, not training in something makes you adapt better.. as our minds are not so fixed. Its like a student coming into your club with a background in karate and another a complete beginner - the 'empty cup' student is much easier to moul to how you want him to be, theo other has to rid himself of ingrain habitual habits first! So, whilst i agree humans can adapt, I dont agree that high trained people adapt differently quickly aka the Herbie Hide example - he didnt adapt at all!

You exercise control!!

I think your just being silly now TBH!

Can you throw a punch full speed at my face then stop it - sure you can - its exactly the same!

So your pretending then (if you not going full out) :evil:

We strike with full power in training etc. as well. Many applications do not need full power to work anyway, as not everything ends in a strike!

So you never knee each other or if you do, you pull them right? Weird that!

As I said and still maintain, I disagree. Learning to fight is a worthy pursuit of course, but it only has a small reflection on helping patterns work better IMO

Stuart

 

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LOL

Seriously, Baddger.. I think we have both debated both sides faily well.. these posts are getting well long - shall we call it a day or do you want to crack on with it. I feel we are going round in circles a bit!

Stuart

 

I agree. I go on holiday soon lol. I still dont agree and im sure you dont, But I will respond to some points

 

You agree... then carry on anyway... oh well.. here we go! :bang:

Dang - just lost my post like you did - bummer - will get back to it when I can be bothered!

---------------------------- okay----------------------------------here we go ----

Yup, I did try to point that out to you, but was ignored. The big difference is, Shotokan drastically changed stuff from its Chinese roots to suit its purposes at the time. Not sure if Goju did, as from what ive seen they still retain a lot of the more 'flowy' stuff.

Then you know wrong. Katas were altered much earlier on than that. the alterations at the school teaching stage was from what is now known as a 'block' from what was originally known as a 'receiving' technique + applications (in the vein Im refering to) were no longer passed on, just basic blocking!

Because you have continually tried to imply that those who do applications, dont fight, as if they are mutually exclusive.. yet to many, they are parts of the same coin and compliment each other!

Makes perfect sense actually - we learn to fight incase we get into a fight (the safe car), we learn applications stop a fight before it starts (the seat belt) plus of course, we can go one further and learn conflict resolution, and self protection principles to avoid such situations in the first place!

Sorry, but you did, a few times. But anyway, if no one knows for sure.. then how do you know for sure what you are saying is correct!! In TKD patterns there are certain moves that I know have other (non-combative) reasons from Gen Choi's POV - I know this, because i study my art - I also know that his 'reasoning' was based on weak info - but thats another discussion entirely!

Well, if you are unsure either way, then i would say critical thinking would leave the mind open for possibilities!!!

Actually, I think you reasoning is based on your experience and limited research (no offence meant), plus of course the fact that you don't/can't diffientiate between fighting & SD!

Hello to you too Yet the fact you elude the question of what you have studied in this regards, speaks a lot! Why not simply name them to bolster your argument!!!

Its not irrelevant as it would have shown you have looked into this are with at the least a discerning eye, before dismissing it! And justbecause you havnt witnessed it personally, doesnt make it irrelevant - just irrelevant (IYO) to you! As for your "anyone else" comment - this whole tread would seem to suggest different!

Sure you can.. but its only your opinion.. its yet to prove your point to the masses!

And when was the last time you used your NHB training on the street? Any type of match fight is not the same as SD, as both opponents know exacly what they are getting themselves in for!

Actually you don't.. which is a strong asset both in ring sports & SD!

Actually, its very relevant (And I notice you didnt answer the question). When was the last time you used one.. either in training or fighting? When was the last one used in the UFC? (err.. never).. because its not trained, so never enters the mind to use it! And yes, I do understand the fndamentals of fighting fairly well... you often need/use them to get range on applications!

By saying that, it just shows (like many in TMA to be fair) just how little you understand about knifehands! Even in TMA's they are undervalued due to the sport side!

Simple.. because it part of your repitoire and has a higher success rate than punching in SD! Why.. because of its limited appreciation!

Again, I equate that to a limited understanding of it or lack of use of it!

And yet they don't... go figure!

Your trying to cloud the issue. if two guys have agreed to fight.. then is sport.. if one of those guys swings at the ref & KO's him... its an assault.. if the ref parries and KO's the fighter.. its SD (still with assualt).. if the ref parries, hits the fighter, then they engage, they are fighting with both assault & SD as part of the mix) - the formation of a technique has nothing to do witb it - my point was simply that various SD favoured technqiues are not used in sport aka like in the video! that is not a sport favour technique!

You know, if I really felt it would change your opinion, I'd try to get something on film (but I dont). And by try, I mean that i would apply a knee defence app IF I was doing Traditional sparring and IF the oppoenent actually use knees.. as it optional and to tell him to do so would defeat the purpose!

your twisting things again. by 'a little' I meant it helped me to recognise what would cause damgae a lot sooner.. not that it helped in applying apps.. drilling did that!

a) no they are not, in fact very few are in this area, if any at all! b) I cant speak for others, but I dont sell it as SD (on its own), I dont sell fighting as SD either, as fighting is a poor self defence IMO (and the laws as well)! c) None that I know of sell it as the 'alternative' to fighting d) The 'motto' no one uses.. I used something like it on here once, but it was in relation to self protection and you woud need to understand all 3 areas to get it e)Theirs a circuit for people into kata apps.. please point me in the right direction (unless of course your refering to ring sports aka two guys, geared up and fully awatre of the rules etc.)

Okay.. so we are clear.. Goju had no effect on Shotokan, and by lineage TKD.

If the pimp knew what was coming.. would he have been taken out with the first shot? The policeman was off duty.. how the heck did he know what was going to happen that night! We`ll just have to agree to disagree here I think, as I think it was a good example of SD!

Exercising 'some' techniques with control, is pretty different from play fighting or light drilling. In our traditional sparring (for seniors) we allow pretty much anything, but its obvious that some things cannot be done full out (thumbs in eyes, elbows to spine etc.), whereas somethings can be done pretty heavy - low kicks, punches, most throws etc.

Guess we`ll have to re-examine the 'train as you fight, fight as you train' maxim then! Based on the odd occassion someone cheated in the ring!

Actually, we were talking about a punch to the wind pipe and at full power, I`d say that ws a pretty dangerous technique considering it doesnt take much to crack/crush the wind pipe! And I dont think anyone gonna appreciate a strike ona straight elbow either - like I said, it wasnt an armlock or anything, just a straight strike!

My point wasnt about moving, it was about adapting or changing whats ingrained - quickly. Hence the learning/teaching example that any instructor can easily verify.

I dont think it was just that. From what I remember of it, it turned into a scrap pretty much from the getgo..like I said, he basically fell over like 2 kids fighting!

Probibly.. both lol. TBH, I can remember who swang the first punch.. but it should have gone a lot better than it did onsidering he's a pro-boxer!

Stuart

 

Just a couple of small things... don't feel like you have to respond...

 

LOL.. just a couple. I started to respond after I lost my first reply last night, but then one of my kiddes need me, so I saved it to finish today.

Stuart

 

I would just say post the clip. I doubt we will see it and if we do it will be at an intentisty that does not represent a real fight.
Less typing more action please.

It is funny watching the contradictions.

Shotokan can not be sperated in the link from Okinawan karate which can not be sperated in the link from Chinese systems. For you to suggest that it can shows you dont know actualy. Your contadiction is that if Sanchin is somehow in TKD ,like you claim on the one hand, then it cant be seperate can it...which you claim on the other.
So if Sanchin is in Tkd, kind of ,and sanchin is in Shotokan then there has to be a link back. If you claim Sanchin is not in Shotokan , which you might to get out of your contradiction, then why claim TKD has sanchin, kind of. Its hilariouse. Your going to reinvent history just to not be wrong or maybe be wrong.

Then fighting is not Sd but you have said you learn to fight....fighting doesnt help in finding applications...but you learnt to fight. Go figure.

The post I originaly responed to was about the Six mistakes of man qoute...and you are making it. You dont know how Fight training can be applied to SD or how important fighting is to it..or the drills etc etc involved so you dont think its possible. The same thing you claim others do. Its hilarious. You cant even see it.

Also you say I act like I know, then blatently tell me I dont know. lol. Who's acting like they know?

Tode or karate was changed so that it could be taught to many people at the same time on command. That is one of the major changes. Thats an important one that took the flow and randomness out of it...it took it further away from reality. You cant get around that and its importance.

Im out of here.

 

Oh, so you can't be bothered replying to individual points now! Okay, so be it. I`ll keep on, keeping on!

Sure. Will do. But bear in mind that I don't take a video camera into class very often, as I`m paid to teach.. but when I do, I`ll post it here. In the meantime, why don't you post a few videos of MMA/NHB working on the street side of things.. I know you got loads as they prove "effectiveness" to you! The one I posted seem pretty equal btw!

Ditto. Hows about some videos of you in action?

Never said it could, just said they made major changes!

LOL. I never said such a thing. See above... I have researched the history of TKD, and thus Shokotan in detail and to say that, shows how little you know! Do your homework first!

I never said Sanchin was in TKD... please read the article properly before making such silly assumptions!! Its obvious you didnt!

A) Never claimed Sanchin was in TKD B) Never claimed it was in Shotokan either. Whats hilarious is you not knowing your **** from your elbow, as its obvious you don't have a clue about things in TKD. That article was a direct response to ITF-C bringing "Ki-Haps" into TKD and my point was that if they are doing that, they should understand internal Ki-Haps properly and introduce something aka Sanchin, that is a credit to that area!!!

I figure its what happens when SD doesnt work, so its a worthy pursuit. Its not my first response however! And by not even acknowledging that, it seems you have a one track mind, void of others opinions! Yoou alos missed what I said entirely regarding this issue.. or did you just ignore it!

A quote originally put forth by a (premier) advocate of "live" training! LOL

Hmmm... yes I do, as I have been there and done it! Its a very important aspect, just not the only aspect!

LOL. I'd lay you a wager, that we do more related SD drills/training in my classes than you do.. its a easy bet considering your previous responses and how little you understand about SD and fighting (meaning, how they connect).!

Sorry, I dont know what you are going on about here. From what I`ve observed ... you dont know much and try to guess the rest.. what is it you actually claim to know?

Tode (plus points for the name check) was changed long before the introduction to mass teaching! Hmmm.. seems you don't know after all then!

Yes it was, except you fail to accept the "why" it was major change!

The kata produced before this were hardly random, they were "to the point".. no radomness involved.. students were however able to change them to suit! Is that what you mean?

Hmmm.. me thinks I mentioned that already!!!!!

Thats probibly a good idea, as your clutching at straws now!

Stuart

 

Hey BL,

Just out of interest... how old are you?

Stuart

 

What has that got to do with my points?
Surely your not that desperate.

You cant seem to stick to the points without going off or changing the direction.

My points....no clips showing applictions against determined violence, no training,, no drills. The only ones are cheesey or low intensity.
You have failed to show otherwise.


Everyone involved in SD at the top end..the famous ones ,shall we say, learnt to fight...pattern application people also learnt to fight. You even said you did.
Learning to fight is important,its the key.
Point made.

TKD is related to Karate,Karate is related to Chinese systems so the study of chinese ssytems is vital to understand fully. You cant dispute the connection only that your unwilling to look further than Shotokan. Its your loss.

Dont try to claim that just because I dissagree or make other points, that I have not trained this stuff myself or seriously looked into it... thats just poor. Get over it that I have and I am still saying what I do.

But IMO theres no need to take it back as everything can be found in fighting systems anyway, on a fundamental level. You keep going on about knife hands but the shaping of the hand is not on a fundamental level. Do you understand how we move fundamentaly? Not by the sounds of it.
And there are competative places where they could be done like Burmese boxing where any strike to any area is allowed or in Brazilian bare knuckle NHB. They dont do them because they dont fit within the choas of a violent struggle,funamentaly. You have shown it as a pre emtive strike which is fair enough but nothing special as a right cross or hook could be a pre emptive strike. But your free to think you have some special things that those who learn to fight dont have. Its crazy but go for it.

And You DID say sanchin was kind of in TKD. Go and look back a few pages. You wrote it.

 

You mean asking your age? Nothing really, I was just curious. Does the fact that you circumvented the question mean perhaps you feel it might have some bearing then!! Hmmmm.

Like I said, was a genuine question just out of curiosity is all!

I think I`ve stuck to the points like super glue, answering your posts line by line, rather than some BS summary like this.. or do you mean that cos I dont always agree with your points thats "going off" etc.!!

Whilst I`m happy to agree (and did so already) that few clips are around (that I know of) against your "determined attackers" - as I have already pointed out the 'why', I disagree that there are no drills or training.. I even posted some links to some.. and before you jump up - drills and training are just that... not against determined attackers (in the way you view it).

Still waiting on the MMA/NHB SD clips btw!

In martial arts you learn to fight... big deal.. AS I SAID, no one of any note (AFAIA) is selling them as an alternative to learning to fight, they are an addition.. are you deliberatly playing deaf and dumb.. or just one of them, as I have said that on numerous occassions too!

Yes it is important (as I have said already #yawn#). Is it the 'be all, end all' - nope, theres more my friend!

'fraid not!

And Chinese systems are related to Bodhidharma.. have you studied him as well? Whilst its good to understand the history and possibly why some moves carried through (or were changed), its not vital in this case, mainly because of the change of 'view' as to how a kata should function, which was a major change in the way the Chinese forms and Okinawan kata address what seems similar concepts... a concept you so far dont seem to grasp as you keep refering to more 'flowy' chinese systems, rather than 'more direct' Okinawan kata!

I never disputed the connection back to Chinese forms.. though I did dispute and correct your comments on a provence (and named the correct style its related to for you) and a karate style that had no bearing here

I have asked you a number of times about your study into the area you refute.. even something as simple as what type of books/DVD's you may have purchased to further your knowledge of this area.. yet, as above, you circumvented the question and avoided answering! Is that a telling sign!! Hmmm!

You keeping harping on about fundamental levels, and I have my opinions on what constitutes that, as I`m sure you do.. now, lets take a BJJ technique mentioned in another thread recently, a flying knee bar (If I recall correctly).. so your saying, if you have the 'fundamentals' down.. anyone should be able to do this technique.. without the need to a) learn the mechanics of it b) apply it with a willing partner c) drill it with both compliant and semi-compliant partners before being able to use it against a 'resisting' opponent! Like I said before (I seem to have done a lot of that in this thread btw).. why does anyone feel the need to name techniques, if not to seperate, learn and remember them, if everything is suppose to simply flow with the 'fundamentals'!!!

I dont keep going on about it - you asked for an example - I gave one - you disgreed that it was a good example - we dicussed why I thought it was and you thought it wasnt!

LOL.. of course not.. I`ve never had a fight in my life and move like a kung-fu panda! :zzz: Funny how you make such assumptions considering we havnt really discussed this are at all! In fact, why don't you educate me so I can see how I move incorrectly and agaisnt the laws of 'fundamentality'!

Videos please.. just to check they dont look like MT or MMA fights with a few extras!

I didnt say a right cross couldnt be effective.. it was a direct response to a question, that showed a technique used, that is only really found in kata and not used in any system of sport based fighting (even if allowed.. as you have comfirmed above)

And where did I allude to that - I never said such a thing.. as far as Im concerend its a different, but connected area. It gives you options that pure fighting doesnt, after all, if all you have is a hammer.. everything looks like a nail!!

This just shows that you are not reading my replies at all.. I NEVER said that, I gave you a link about my thoughts relating to it - which obviously you never read either. And from your replies here, it is obvious you have a blinkered, one-track view and you dont wish to 'discuss' but rather export you opinion, righty or wrongly, as you think its the only way anyway!

Stuart