The value of Tae Kwon Do training?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by LoudClumsyNinja, Aug 25, 2011.

  1. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    BTW, for those reading this who still don't see where I`m coming from when refering to patterns/kata and why I feel that whats seen today (and in todays training) regarding them as a void, I wrote an article on it called 'TKD's Black Hole'.. feel free to have a read if you are interested: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_jtkblackhole.html

    This will (hopefully) explain why i feel that the patterns of TKD etc. are more than many give them credit for.

    Stuart
     
  2. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    Oh dear. I dont know If I have the time to. Do the best you can or leave it.


    There is an option of not doing them. Theres an option of quiting the style or doing them,if a person wants to, and learning to fight. I dont like,or agree, the idea of people being sold that they will help you in a violent determined attack as oppose to learning to fight. Learning to fight is the key and should be the main focus. If people want to do patterns for enjoyment or art I have nothing against.

    No.When I say 'alot of it is about' I mean people are going into these applications to desperatly find a reason for them rather than admit its a waste of time or they were wrong to believe it.

    More than likely all the ones that feel or seem weird or cheesy and are only shown in demos. A study of the Chines stlyes is a must to understand patterns and some of them are symbols inmotion not applications.

    I guess a crazy example is the dance at the beginning of Muay thai fights. Although it contains some elements of what a fighter will apply in a fight, although exagerated, it also contains other elements that refer to Buddhism or other things. Symbols in motion. If a person were to try to use that to learn to fight or get applications it would be pretty hard and pointless. But some of it might get them somewhere . Eg they can do a leg check in thin air, and give them just enough to believe the rest could be for fighting to.

    Its fair enough you defend your corner. I think iv said my view on the rest above. What some think is hidden, wasnt even there in the first place. It was something else.



    The policeman one I see your points and have given mine against.

    The security guard one, I dont understand the point of you posting it as it shows a guy who trains at an MMA gym using his training.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2011
  3. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    We dont agree, no.

    Anyone who knowingly walks into a situation like that or is in a job that is definitly going to involve violence is not realy applying SD IMO. If they dont think it will hapen they possibly shouldnt be in the job. I would say that policemen knew full well what was likely to happen and was prepared and knew what he could do. What im saying doesnt take away that what he did was good in that he helped out the women. What im saying is its not a good example of SD for your everyday person going about his life with no intention to do things like that or have anyone attack him.
     
  4. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Like you, I`m busy too... may go back to it if we need more stuff to discuss, but will leave it for now then!

    Not if you train in an art that requires them like TKD/Karate.. as I said!

    Sure.. anyone can quit if they don't like that side of things... OR if they don't want to quit, they can make them better, more productive and enjoyable OR they can simply stay in the middle area of performance just for the sake of it!

    They can do that as well.. most clubs do in one way or another.. our club certainly does... I enjoy both aspects myself, as do many others there.

    Not 'as opposed to'... 'in addition too'! Each area is muctualy exclusive you know!

    Who's main focus? Yours, mine, theres!!! People do martial arts for many reasons... my reasons when I started are now different 20 years down the line also!

    LOL at the use of the word 'desperatly', as if those people couldnt do anything esle with their time! And theres no need to 'find a reason for them' as that is written in history.. the question should be why are so many content with the reasons they have now!


    Oh... I thought you knew exactly what you were refering to (movewise), hence why i asked.. so your actually just guessing that weird moves have no meaning?

    No its not... Shotokan drastically changed much of the chinese heritage type moves.. as I stated earlier... so unless you can give specific examples, again, it seems your just guessing at these things based on the White Crane connection!

    You wern't refering to MT.. you were refering to TKD patterns (the subject under discussion) - please give the examples you keep refering to.. or say you don't know which ones... either is better than hinting at something only!

    Again... please state what moves you are refering to? If this paragraph is in reference to the whole thing (ie. a whole kata/pattern), then you are mistaken... as they most certain were there I the first place - hence my point about your 'reasoning' being the opposite way round!




    Okay cool.. was just checking we wasnt crossing wires about who was who, as one had a uniform on and another didnt.

    Just as an opposite view point, as it showed, when needed, it wasnt as deadly as everyone seems to make out in these types of discussions - at least not for him, as both fighters, after a good amount of time, looked relatively unscaved!

    Stuart
     
  5. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    LOL... I think i got that :rolleyes:

    Well, the policeman was off-duty and I doubt he 'decided' he was point to the beach front (I thik it was), to look for trouble! Even then, the fact that he shout across the road didn't mean he knew the guy would come at him!

    Same with the Security Guard... I doubt he expected to get in a full on fight that day.. his job as a nigh****ch man was probiby more to stop break in's, so again, it was most likely an unexpected occurance!


    Maybe... or maybe he was just confident in his SD skills, should it kick-off, but hoped that a verbal warning (or whatever it was) would be enough! :p

    It was actually more as an example of a 'traditional' technique, not trained/used in MMA, MT or even TKD comp type sparring/training.. and mostly only practiced in patterns ... unles of course, you take the technique out of a pattern/kata and drill it to become a decent self defence application!!!!! :cool:

    Stuart
     
  6. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    I have been making my points geared towards dealing with a determined violent attacker. So anyone whos focus is that. Or they are training just for fun but want to be able to that if needed. Its wrong to give the impression that applications will do this , IMO. Learning to fight should be the main focus.Peoples individuals reasons are irrelavant to my points.

    Its very hard to admit we could be duped by our apparent masters. Its very hard to train and believe and get belts then say ' actualy , that was pointless'. And thats not a crime and its fairly normal. I just think its a possible reason to stick with this stuff. Hey...I could be wrong. Remember my whole point has been where are the examples against determined attackers...if they were there alot more would take it more seriously.
    With the fight training you see the training and you see it applied. And you feel it or do it against determined attackers.

    To get into 'moves' Would be a disaster lol, and very difficult to express. If they do not fundamentaly feel right its more likely they are not right. Most dont feel right.


    I have never mentioned White crane. You did.. I said Fujian systems.
    Things were changed before Shotokan.


    I used the dance as an example of something that consists of symbols expressed through movement and elements of what happens in a fight. Im not saying im an expert on Chinese systems. I have seen good applications but nothing that could not be learned in a genuine fighting systems and that fighting systems trains it alot bettert plus they are only good because the applier knew how to fight to be able to find them and apply them in the first place. Fight training came first.

    You have said ' I am not your lackey'. Here, I say the same to you. Do the research beyind Shotokan.
     
  7. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    I dont believe anyone is those kinds of jobs is not prepared in some way. If they were like that I wouldnt employ them.
     
  8. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Who says it isnt their main focus.. but it doesnt have to be to the detriment of all others areas!

    Okay.. what Masters are you refering to now.. heads of TKD orgs and such like or the Okinawan masters who invented the kata that TKD has followed suit from?

    Actually, what is fairly normal is to train patterns/kata with dodgy applications (if any) or pay them no more mind than 'part of grading/for competition' mentality! Take me for instance, I learnt patterns the same way as most other people do, probibly you included.. very few applications shown and the few that were, were abysmal in reality. I did'nt 'monkey see monkey do' I investigated them further - much further, hence my belief in boon hae.. but not the boon hae most of us are told a move is for!

    I`m sure you do... I do too, booth with 'fight' training and applications! Horses for courses I guess.



    To get into 'moves' Wou
    Not really! You are acting 'like you know'... so simply say move X in patten Y was orginally for this practice in Z system!

    For most people that do training like you do exclusively.. all patterns/kata moves feel wrong.. do they not? So saying if it dont feel right it probibly isnt right doesnt really carry much weight from that side of the discussion!


    Thats because thats the main style Okinawan Karate is based on!! Fujian is/was a provence/area.. its main style there was White Crane!!!

    It wouldnt surprise me.. and then further changed came about to produce Shotokan.. moving quite far away from the original white crane systems (and other Fujian styles in case you fancy splitting hairs any more :rolleyes:)


    No,.. but your claiming moves in karate kata that have transended into TKD patterns have no relevance in an SD/fighting context.. I simply asked which ones you refer to... so far... nothing! So I guess your just 'thinking' this is a possibility right, as it might be the case with some kung-fu moves you may know of.. is that correct?


    Most general fighting systems that you refer to don't training anything but the techniques related to their sport - thats not bad thing btw, as it makes those techniques good/powerful etc. last night for example, I was training some applications with some of the seniors.. one involves a strike to the throat, another attacking a locked arm with a striking motion to break it (and of course how to lock it first).. when was the last time you did that in 'fight training'.. you dont of course. In fact I also did some choke stuff too.. stuff they may do similar too in MMA.. but not MT! So no... lots of the stuff isnt covered in standard fight training as you see to suggest. And yes, we did 'fighting stuff' against rsisting oppoenents as well that night!

    Soooo... you have seen good applications then eh! :cool:

    Like I said previously.. maybe, maybe not.. I trained for many years in TKD before getting into decent applications.. I could fight.. but when I learned applications - which of course were very different from the fighting we learned, after I drilled them, I became able to apply them better and better! So in this case, the application came first.. i didnt larn it from fighting, just the reverse in fac!


    LOL.. I know my arts father art pretty well my friend! And its pretty clear that kata was the big thing and fighting training (as you see) was very thin on the ground.. perhaps you should research a little more :p

    Stuart
     
  9. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    okay, whatever. lets not go round in circles, but the next time your in a shop etc. check the secruity people and see if they look ready for a ruck!!!
     
  10. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Although this thread as flowed in quite a few different directions.. shouldnt it have been moved to the TKD section from the outset considering the OP?
     
  11. ShadowHawk

    ShadowHawk Valued Member

    The value in TWD in young kids in america (americanized mcdojo TWD) is it teaches them how to be flexible for later to learn hardcore martial arts.
     
  12. Theforgotten

    Theforgotten Drifting Aimlessly

    Shadowhawk, I would say that the value of TKD also lies in the fact that people think that it is fun and they enjoy it while getting a good work out. As long as they are enjoying it and it meets their personal goals, then the rest is a moot point. Not everybody is trying to be "t3h d43dli3z". Some people just want to practice a fun activity that gets them off of the couch and holds their interest for the long haul. TKD is one of those activities.
     
  13. jh1

    jh1 Valued Member

    Its amazing to me that this thread is still going. The only thing I learned from this debate is that we all disagree with each-other.
     
  14. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    Any master or instructor. Anyone who starts a martial arts puts their trust in the teacher and that system. For a person to get to a black belt or higher and turn around and say '' That was a waste of time'' is rare. So alot will continue and so you get useless applications because its out of desperation.
    The Okinawan systems go back to Fujian systems.

    Fair enough. But when you see what the people who investigate come up with it is still not shown against determined attackers, which was my point, and anything that is something decent can be learned when training to fight, and learnt in an easyier more productive way.

    Im saying what I found or learnt. And im not saying I know. I have said im prepared to be wrong. No problems there from me.
    Im not getting into 'moves' because it gets cheesy. What do I say? ''When some one does a punch this move is this... etc ''. Its not about that. THATS what I dont agree with. There are fundamentals learnt through fighting and fight training which are applied in the moment relative to whats going on. Not moves that work under certain conditions.
    Also why should I go and train and go seminars etc to then just say what I know.
    If you want to imply I dont know anything, thats fair enough.

    And one of my main pints was that because they contained expression through movement and fighting applications , its dificult and pointless to try to figure it out because everything you need to is already in fight training systems . Theres nothing secret to learn.


    It carries huge weight. Anyone starting..ANYONE finds it goes against how they moves.
    Wrestling and all its variations, Judo, Boxing, MT and all their variations are based on how you move fundamentaly. A beginner in those will be enhancing how they move, not going against it. That is a hugely important difference.

    Good Fujian is closer,the closest but its still not as close as pure fighting ststems.

    The point is to take the whole not the parts. Wing chun and dog boxing ( which has groundwork) are also from that province and concentrate on sperate areas of a fight,so would need to be looked at to understand and then you have Sanchin.. where is that in TKD? Its nowhere.
    Understanding that also is a must. BUT, again, non of them come close to fight training systems. Why do a rare groundwork style when you can do BJJ or wrestling which are miles more solid? Why do wing chun when you can get alot ,lot better hand fighting and clinching from MT and wrestling?
    Theres nothing secret.

    The reason people go the pattern route is that its easier than learning to fight and losing now and then or getting hurt. Or its to try to find meaning to something which is vague. Both will always attract people.




    I thought what im saying was fairly common knowlegde in todays times. Most seriouse about Karate recognise its Chinese heritage.

    The 'moves' that are forced and dont feel right. So thats most of them.
    One single strike is not an application.

    What im refering to trains fundamentals that can be applied in anyway the trainee sees fit. If I can hit hard with my fists,knees, elbows, shins...anything then I can hit where I want. Nothing stops a boxer wacking someone in the throat. If a boxer was to go into a SD situation and act like he was in the ring that would be his fault and not the training. All of that is more about mindset.
    The same with groundwork. If I can move well and get position , I can do what I like..why cant a wrestler break and arm or wack the living hell out of someone? You dont have the monoploy on being dirty or nasty. A nasty wrestler is alot more scary than someone pretending to apply deadly applications.
    How were you applying these things? Pretending.You didnt break an arm or a windpipe. Its not fully commited or against determined attackers. Ever.

    But you could fight you said and learnt to. So it did come first.
     
  15. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    It is, what it is
     
  16. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    I am in no way volunteering to get kicked in the head by a TKD bb. Anyone who thinks there is no value to TKD training should do just that.
     
  17. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Man, you know how hard it is to keep up with a thread that gets posts replied to a week later!

    Whilst I`m happy to agree that is the case with 'modern' appliactions of kata/patterns, its not so with those created in Okinawa (as discussed) and is the very reason I started to look at them from that perspective!

    Yet, contain 'major' changes - as discussed earlier!

    Yes, I see your point. IMO its an area of study that 'older' guys get into.. its about enriching the system we do (to a point).. on the flipside, theres very few 40+ guys demonstrating what you are refering to 'in the ring'. At classes we work resisting opponents, but unlike punching and kicking, its 9sort of) a fairly new area.. soem whilst some can be drilled easily this way, others Im not so sure about.. though in time this will change as we then research training/drilling methods... just bear with us and don't close off completely.. because your not gonna stay young forever!

    No.. you posts implied that you know moves do not have combative purposes... therefore a pattern that contains them cannot either.. but if you 'Know that' for sure... then you must know which ones or else you are clutching at straws!

    Well, thats lucky as patterns show many varied applications to punches... just like real life!! Weird that!

    Sure.. totally agree.. though when discussing applications.. I dont see it as fighting - as said before!

    Cos it may just change your POV. Still, you seem to have it all made up (your mind) so obviously you wouldnt waste your cash! Still, did I say that.. if so it must have been a while back lol (see what i mean about the time between posts).

    Its not about learning secrets, its about having something more benficial than it is now - I`m sure we covered this already!



    Like I said, it depends where you place it in the 'order of things'... we do 'fight' training as well, as I said, they are not mutually exclusive.. they compliment each other!

    Yet.. they do not make up or are seen as the 'father arts' of shotokan.. so they are irrelevant!

    Here actually (sort of): http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_internalpattern.html

    Besides.. Sanchin is not a shotokan kata!

    Because..as I keep saying.. they are not "fighting"!! Oh.. I give up as you fail to recognise that near on every fight starts with pre-cursors.. that policeman and the pimp didnt fight.. it was all the build up which allowed him to execute his pre-emptive strike.. there was no 'fight' involved!


    I go the patterns route.. well actually i don't.. i fight as well and have done since I started martial arts... you seem to think that if your 'into' applications (which is different to being into patterns for the sake of patterns peformance btw), then you dont train any fighting skills.. that it absolutely not the case!


    I did not reply about the history, but the moves in kata you imply you know about!!! You contantly refer to its heritage like you know the 'ins and outs' of it... and therefore feel comfortable commenting on it.. but when asked about what moves you refer to.. you don't seem to have any answers except... Fujian.. which as I said, is a provence anyway.. not a MA style!!

    A single strike is as much an application as multiple techniques.. more so when its not a technique trained in ANY "sport" based system, including TKD's sport side!


    thats a falasy.. the way you train is the way you fight... surely you`ve heard that expression!!

    Not if you don't know the moves in the first place... why do you think BJJ techniques have names.... so you can learn them! Sure, you have to 'get position first'.. but isnt that the same with most techniques!!

    I didnt say they couldnt... just in the context of their sport, its not allowed and hence not trained that way!

    Like you said,... its all in the mindset and if you dont train that way, its unlikely to happen. Just like the way you train ie. hard strikes etc. is how you will react in a situation. Besides.. it not "being dirty".. theres no "dirty" in SD.. thats your 'sport mindset' kicking in ! :)

    LOL at the OTT "deadly applications" bit.. sure they are dangerous if used badly.. thats why they are trained safely!! And training safely, is different to 'pretending'!

    That doesnt mean that I didnt go full speed against a resisting oppoenent to get there.. just that I didnt follow through. Do you KO your training partners every session... if not, your pretending too then I guess (by your own reasoning)!!

    You can defend with control against a fully (or mostly) committed attacker.. whilst showing restraint in response at some point. In my first book i emntion how I was doing sparring against one of my students and just flowed accidently into a technique/application we were doing the night before.. it all flowed effortlessly and ended with him in an armlock, then a choke... I didnt crush his wind pipe though or break his arm.. I exercised control... though as he didnt know it was coming, he was in 'full resistance mode'.. yet it still got him.. easily! Go figure!


    Don't twist my words.. I said I was fighting way before i got into pattern applications. Knowing how to fight didnt help applications.. drilling them did.. that is what I said.

    Stuart
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2011
  18. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Yup. :bang: :cool:
     
  19. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Within TKD itself, one level can be a stepping stone into another - for those who want more. Thats what we found by experience.

    There's always one in the crowd with a defibrillator lying around.
     
  20. sbmumford

    sbmumford Valued Member

    Geez, it's exhausting reading this exchange!

    BadLad, I feel you protest too much;
    No one stays in a MA out of desperation to justify what they've invested in it. Have you not noticed how many black belts skip around, to add to their knowledge, and out of plain curiosity?
    It's you who seems adamant not to vary from your accustomed routine. You keep saying you're ready to be convinced and then slamming the door on the possibility that you don't already know everything.
     

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