The value of Tae Kwon Do training?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by LoudClumsyNinja, Aug 25, 2011.

  1. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    The foot jab is the toe tip kick in karate. I am pretty sure our style of kicking including the roundhouse is the same if not very close. In fact, some of our practitioners will attack the shin with instep or the toe tip kick and train to do so.
     
  2. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    Lol I've never claimed to be anything but a small fry in the professional world - it's still an achievement that 99% of people dont do. Yourself included. I listen to people based on what they say - not on whether or not they're a pro - so far, you've said nothing that's warranted anything other than the replies it's received.
     
  3. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I think you have to be really careful with Wiki articles Belltoller. In TKD and much karate the standing leg must rotate, contrary to what that article implies, and the power comes from the rotation of the hips, again contrary to what that article says.

    I'm not saying that there are no differences between the MT kick and the Karate/TKD kick, I am saying that this particular article is not a good explanation of them.

    No criticism of you intended fella :)

    Mitch
     
  4. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    Yup, wiki isn't the best source of information, as it is sometimes not factual and can be heavily filled with bias. I didn't really want to go there, because it can be perceived as a cheap shot in a forum.
     
  5. sbmumford

    sbmumford Valued Member

    Wiki is written by me and you - in fact you can go rewrite that whole article yourself right now - your changes will appear instantly - and if no one re-rewrites your edits it will become the word according to Wikipedia.

    So, yes, definitely take it with a grain of salt!
     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Fair enough - thanks for sharing.
     
  7. sbmumford

    sbmumford Valued Member

    I've noticed MB gets a lot of strokes from his buddies on this site who encourage his bluster. But maybe down the road after taking (as well as giving) a few more knocks he'll remember some of what you just said.
     
  8. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Thats perfectly fine. I'm happy to be corrected on wrong points - specially when two opposing camps verify the same correction - thats when we really learn something!
     
  9. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Not meant to be used as a 'shot' in my case, anyroads. We love WTF Taekwondo and I'm taking my first Muay Thai classes so its an attempt to understand the ins and outs, pros and cons of each.

    If any of my posts seem to be of a troublemaker sort, I assure you, its by accident only!
     
  10. sbmumford

    sbmumford Valued Member

    Let it be resolved that after 30-some pages of often contentious and sometimes absurd (with occasional flashes of brilliance) debate over the merits or lack of same to TKD training, techniques and also to include kata in karate-based systems generally, we have arrived at a resolution & consensus:

    Contributions to Wikipedia should not be held as the final authority!

    Well done, mates!
     
  11. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    We are all here to learn from one another. Please report back as you discover things. By the way, love your sig.
     
  12. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Will do. Soon as I manage to get off the ambulance stretcher.
     
  13. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    I did a reply to each point then lost it, so im not writing it again!

    Some are just too random anyway and get away from the main point which is that no one shows pattern applications against determined attackers or pattern application drills that develop the attributes needed to defend yourself, like timing, anticipation, footwork ,head movement, mindset etc.
    I dont ask for you to show SD videos.Anything that shows what im asking. Theres nothing so why expect anyone to do it or agree its usefull?

    As for my clips
    Theres plenty of fights showing people using what they learn succesfully. Watch boxing, wrestling, MT,MMA. And theres possibly SD ones too.

    Some training clips and drills clips.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PNtUPO0RGs"]Lumpini & Rajadamnern stadium champions training (1 of 5) - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6l42HiWkx_o"]Kaew Fairtex *FAIRTEX BANGPLEE* - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqK51c-ihKw"]Zeke Jones' Hip Drills - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L0OsPTJpAY"]Yodseanklai & Narupon Clinch workout!! - YouTube[/ame]

    Theres loads more relating to all the things needed, judo ones, boxing ones,wresling etc etc... all showing how a person can get better.
    Theres not one showing how pattern applications get you better. And not a single pattern application drill I have done or heard of compares to things like that. I could be wrong... im willing to be wrong but show me.
    You can take that as attack or take it as a simple ,calm plausable reason why I and others think pattern applications are a waste of time when it comes to learning to fight or fight back when defending yourself.


    The police man clip is not SD. SD is a random attack. He chose to put himself there. Theres more options to help her than he showed. How do we know the police man did not have back up coming, or the police coming. That was not a SD example.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2011
  14. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    Anyone who steps into the ring has my respect. I don't care if you get your ass handed to you, you still showed balls to step in and step up. Reminds me of my days playing rugby. There were guys who showed up for a practice or two, but never stepped onto the pitch. There were also guys who sucked, but at least the stepped onto the pitch and played with their all and that earns my respect.
     
  15. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Okay.. whatever you say.

    Don't post random stuff then... and you wont get random replies eh!

    Like I said, they are hard to come by, as most people don't have a video camera strapped to their head just in case things kick off!!! Though, I did post one, but you dismissed it, even though the technique used isnt used in MMA or even in TMA sport matches!!

    I gave a web site www.iainabernethy.com that has videos showing that! I think he even has some DVDs show the drills.

    Well, as most applications are designed to damage people, for full out resisting opponents theres only really real fights or SD isn't there!

    I don't expect you to agree... your mind is made up.. however, that doesnt change the opinion of those that actually train and drill them.. you don't obviously... but like Bruce Lee said.. "Don't think... feel"! :p

    Sooooooooooooooo.. you have shown some of people training/demonstrating.. wow.. I have pointed you (or others) towards the clips of those that train apps... yet you dismiss them.. go figure. None of your clips show fully resisting oppoenents.. and when/if you do post one.. I bet it will be in competition anyway! I show you some things from real fights and you dismiss both of them too... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! Funny that!

    Better at what... defending yourself against an attack.. then theres a few yes! A good book too :cool:

    Who knows what you've done.. when you thought I had "guessed" before (which I didnt), you got all antsy... am i now to take your word you have looked into and studied that area seriously... I don't think so!

    You show me and I`ll show you... when I asked for videos in return you can't show any... oh, I forgot... you lost your reply right! Like I said, I`m not in the business of converting people like you.. just to discuss this area for others that may read it... if you want convincing, do your own homework.. though I doubt you do anyway and thats why you havnt really!

    I take it as a lack of knowledge and understanding of that area actually... if you was really interested, you`d research yourself, buy the stuff needed, train with the right people etc. as I said, I`m not here to convince you, or be your lackey searching for clips etc.

    Err... yes it is!

    Err.. not nessecarily!

    Good for him.. topbloke IMO!

    Perhaps... but its heat of the moment stuff.. hindsight is all to easy!

    Even if he did.. so what, he took the guy out with a cool calm single shot that ISN'T' TRAINED IN MMA/NHB or EVEN TMA SPORT COMPS.. sorry, had to shout as it seems you don't hear too well! Heck, if thats not true.. show me the last knifehand KO in MMA or NHB or even someone training them!

    Well, as you have already stated you don't follow the norm on terms like this, but go your own route through common sense... how the heck do you know what constitutes being called 'SD' anyway!!! Again, by your own (earlier) admissions!! In fact, from your replies above, its perfectly clear that you don't!

    Notice how you ignored commenting on the other clip as well - the security guard one!

    Stuart
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2011
  16. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    OH oh.. I have.. years ago at a few kick boxing events!.. rep me :rolleyes:

    I won.. pretty quick too lol

    I represented TKD against Thai & kick boxers btw :cool:

    Probo 15 years ago now though lol


    Stuart
     
  17. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    Thats not SD. How the hell can anyone say that. He put himslef in the situation. Shall I shout that. He was fully prepared already. Its like two guys going up to each other in the ring prepared to fight. Why dismiss that as SD yet say what he did was SD. Its doesnt fit. Bouncers..not SD. Police..not SD.. army .. not SD.. They are all prepared
    read..with back up probaley and ready for what will come, with all the tools. That is not the same as an normal person walking along who is attacked. Or in bar and attacked.etc etc.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2011
  18. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    You said that becasue you have no option but to do them (patterns) then you may as well make them worthwhile. Did you not?
    I find that interesting because IMO alot of it is about instead of saying patterns are a waste of time after so a many years of doing them, people are desperatly trying to make them usefull and so thats why we see cheesy demos and poor applications. Plus , to go back to my fist post, some things that are meant to be just symbols in motion are being shown as applications when they were never meant to be in the first place. As I said , some are probably fighting appliactions but figuring it out is pointless because we can learn these same things through other, proven ways like fighting and doing fight training drills, which teach people better.
     
  19. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Badger Ladder,

    I cannot reply to your previous post (#437), as you havnt done the quote thing properly, so I can't quote anything except the very last paragraph and I really can't be bothered copy and pasting every line, then doing it for you. If you wanna go correct it, then I probibly will... until then, I`ll reply to this one.

    No, I didnt actually... I actually said "for those that enjoy TKD, karate or any art that has kata/patterns... the option of 'not' doing them isn't there, so IMO, making better use of something you have to (whether you want to or not) invest time training in seems a sensible idea to me.. " - what this means is that for those that do TKD/Karate etc., that do them anyway (as thats part of that system), it makes sense to me to make them a more valuable component of the art, rather than doing them only for the sake of doing them for gradings etc. This is different from what you imply!

    Actually, very few people invest their time in the study of TKD patterns and applications.. so this 'lot of it about' stuff its wrong. If you are talking about demo's etc. show the P/K/B versions.. then I`d agree with you.. but they arnt investing time in their study, they are just doing what they are told/taught.. with weak/non-workable apps.. is this what your refering to?

    Things like what? Please say exactly what things you are refering to?

    Whilst I agree that figuring it out can be time consuming, its not pointless for those interested in this area.. maybe for you and your goals, but not or others! That said, most don't go around actually figuring them out, they buy a book or a DVD and simply train/drill them.

    My point with the 'me not understand you' thing (#403), is that you are basing your opinion on the way you`ve seen kata done (or how you did them), or even what kata have looked like for the last 100 years or so.. where as my point is argued from the POV of before then, in what they were meant for, trained for and used for before they were dumbed down (for the Okanawan & Japanese school systems), then copied by so many onwards! Hence trying to convince people that they are something they are not cannot be a valid reason, as they were in fact the very thing you feel I`m trying to convince people of - if you see my point! (Though as I said, Im not really trying to convince you of anythng, just defending their corner a bit)

    Stuart

    Ps. I think you may be getting confused with the clips I posted - not sure, so please correct me if Im wrong.
    - the first clip was of a policeman - off duty (hence no uniform)
    - the 2nd clip - of the man in uniform fight, IS NOT of a policeman - he was a mall security guard

    .. I mention this in case you sort out your other post, because I am not always sure what clip you are refering to.

    Stuart
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2011
  20. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    By the way, I will say this, our views on what constitutes SD (self defence) seems different!

    You seem to feel that anyone in uniform cannot be doing self-defence, but I disagree with that.

    Now I would agree if a policeman was on call, called to a fight, then he would be expecting it to get physical. But a policeman who doesnt expect things to get physical can still utilize self-defence (ie. an off-duty one), as can a soldier (who's gun jams) etc. Its really in the wording - self defence - or defence of oneself! I`m sure neither set out that night thinking or looking for a fight/trouble - they just happened. Neither was prepared.. neither had back-up from what Ive seen of the clips, and though the secruity guard had a gun (I think) he didnt draw it, though the policeman probibly would of if he had one.. but as he didnt, I doubt he had a gun anyway.

    Stuart
     

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